Saturday, December 7, 2013

My Posse


So, meet Josh, Lance, and Tim. They're filming a documentary about Maura's case and are along on this journey across Quebec with me.

As far as updates, I'm starting to get responses from my flyers. There have been credible sightings in Sherbrooke. I'll be passing that info to the police, soon.

We visited Montreal and Beauharnois today.

Quebec City tomorrow. Unless we hear from her before then.

53 comments:

  1. Wow... seems like it's going well.

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  2. Please post a picture of the fliers on this site.

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    1. Hi Rose.

      I wonder if Renner might be reluctant to do this because he is afraid of the telephone # or email listed getting inundated by some of the people hanging around this case bent on distorting the facts and spewing misinformation. James perhaps you could post a version with the contact info obscured?

      ~ John Green

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  3. Remember this .... (scroll down to post #1117)

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146248&page=45

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    1. Also here, at post #21

      http://www.topix.com/forum/city/amherst-ma/TDI8GHE3636JOUPSP

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    2. Also note Fred Leatherman's 18th red herring in post #2. Just interesting to reflect on the times when Quebec and Sherbrooke have come up over the years.

      http://findmauramurray.fr.yuku.com/search/topic/topic/3#.UqQByCiQnWE

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    3. John,
      Thanks for posting those! Good luck with your search, James!

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  4. Have you ever thought of the possibility of plastic surgery? She might look completely different.

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    1. Hi Gabriel.

      Back when I was spending a lot of time thinking and writing about this case, I talked to someone who does progression sketches. She told me that Maura at 30 could conceivably look very different than at 21 because of several unusual but, in youth, appealing facial features she has. She thought that her very pronounced cheek bones with some natural face filling out that comes from getting older (and no longer, possibly, running as much) her face might take on a a droopy or bottom heavy look. Also, in candid pictures of her, particular from the side, you can see that she has something of a so called "weak" chin, even though it looks very full and prominent straight on. This, according to my contact, might have exaggerated that effect. In addition, at one time, Maura's sister Kathleen very much resembled the Maura whose image we know. Some have suggested that Kathleen's appearance at 30 or so might be a guide to what Maura looks like now, particularly if she, like her sister, put on some weight.

      ~ John Green

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  5. Jamer Renner you wrote this almost a year ago. Have your intentions changed vis a vis the police and revealing Maura's whereabouts and, if so, why?

    Saturday, January 28, 2012
    A Note for Maura, If You're Out There
    I posted this before, but I guess I should repeat it in light of these new developments.

    If Maura is out there, somewhere, living a new life, I certainly don't want to blow her cover. It's her right as an adult to disappear.

    If she can contact me and can offer some proof of her identity, I'll happily stop searching. I'm sure others would like to know she's alive so that they can stop searching, too. That doesn't mean she has to reveal her location.

    But right now, the possibility still exists that she was murdered, or that she was the victim of an accident of some kind that led to her death. This is still very much a confounding mystery. So I'll keep digging until we know otherwise.

    Mysteries frustrate me.

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  6. Good question. I still think he should leave her alone if she is alive and isn't in any trouble. Otherwise he's just a jerk.

    If she chose to disappear and doesn't want anyone to know she's alive, maybe she has a good reason.

    The people here who want to know where she is and what happened, I understand, but this isn't a movie. It's a real person you're dealing with. If she's alive and JR outs her, maybe *that* puts her in danger...

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  7. Renner has written repeatedly (see John Avellar's exerpt above as well as Renner's recent post "For Maura") that he would not "out" Maura's specific whereabouts or blow her cover. Furthermore, he gave her every opportunity to come forward privately and extinguish this particular search before it began.

    That being said, nobody really knows (yet) what happened to her. Hundreds (if not thousands) of people go missing every year and most of them are never mentioned in the news at all - never mind still being actively written about and investigated ten years later.

    We (or our daughters, sisters, etc.) should all be so lucky to have an entire community actively investigating and/or discussing our case on a daily basis - never mind having someone like James Renner (who has the pulpit to focus mainstream attention on this case) take an interest and actively investigate to the extent he has.

    Dead or alive, there have been far too many mentions of French Canada to NOT make some attempt to investigate there and see if there's any fire behind all the smoke. True, Maura could be hiding, or she could be dead, but she could also be locked up in some sicko's house-of-horrors like Michelle Knight and Amanda Berry (or Jacey Duggard, etc.). It's unlikely, but let's face it, one reason Maura's case is so compelling is that it entails so many unusual or unlikely elements.

    Unlike Michelle Knight, not only does Maura have a family who have devoted a ton of energy and resources into looking at her (the court case in NH alone probably cost Fred Murray most of his savings or put him into debt), but she has a dedicated online community spanning the globe who (if nothing else) keep the conversation going and keep the topic alive. That's important because once people lose interest, the case dies a slow cold death.

    Sure, Renner has a book to sell - what's wrong with that? If writing about the case and his search gives him the opportunity and resources to do things like this Canada investigation, then more power to him. When did pursuing a profession where one can make money doing what one enjoys (and also potentially make some kind of positive impact) become a bad thing? This is still America, right?

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    1. Jack,

      I think the genie is out of the bottle on this even if Renner want's to respect her privacy. If she is alive and he proves it, but keeps her location a secret (perhaps the highly visible trip to CA is a misdirect and she's a towel girl in Argentina), at some point the collective power of people using the internet will find her. Its too much to expect that she can be proven alive and a media circus not come of it.

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    2. Very true, rcoopr.

      That is why Renner has consistently offered Maura the opportunity to come forward in complete anonymity before it got to this point.

      Most recently, he re-extended that same offer on November 27th of this year (accompanied by a warning that it was a sort of "last chance" as he was about to start actively following leads as to her whereabouts),

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    3. Jack Spencer wrote:

      "That is why Renner has consistently offered Maura the opportunity to come forward in complete anonymity before it got to this point.

      Most recently, he re-extended that same offer on November 27th of this year (accompanied by a warning that it was a sort of "last chance" as he was about to start actively following leads as to her whereabouts)"



      And that is what's wrong with all of you, that you can't see how ridiculous this is. Seriously. Take a moment to use your brain and think. Maybe you'll get it.

      -- Louis

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    4. Louis,

      What is wrong with me is I am a resident of the town she disappeared in and if she is alive and well somewhere it would would be real nice to put this thing to rest. I(we) are very tired of the constant trespassers who feel free to trample through yards and ask questions, invade privacy and take pictures in their desire to "solve the mystery". I am also a resident of NH and I pay taxes that covers the expense to continue looking for her. If she is alive, that money should be spent on people who are actually missing. Sure she is entitled to disappear if she wants to, but I and the rest of the residents of this town and this state continue to pay for the search for her.

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    5. Excellent point Bill. If a person decides to disappear, then that person surely realizes that their decision does not exist in a vacuum. Resources will be expended looking for them. It is not fair to the taxpayers, searchers, and law enforcement.

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    6. Bill H,
      I get that and I respect that. I understand your wish to know as a resident. I wouldn't like being subject to random people showing up in town and trespassing, etc. As for the taxpayer expense, the money's gone. The majority's been spent. Your taxes will be the same regardless, and not many resources are going to this anymore.

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    7. As far as having a book to sell, the book helps her case way more than harming it. It brings more attention to her case, are you going to go after the television shows for showing her case because they make money from the viewers? I think not...

      Also it is law that if he does find her, it is up to her to reach out to her family, they won't get an address to find her, all the LE is able to do is to say she was found, they legally cannot say where she is. And to be considered a fugitive you have to have charges filed against you. The cc charges were not filed as of her disappearance, there was no DUI filed, so she was not a fugitive, maybe a person of interest, but not charged.

      The closing of her case is helpful to the police because it solves her case, and frees up the police to work on other cases in their unit.

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  8. Since this is still an ongoing investigation by at least the NHCCU, anyone with information concerning her whereabouts needs to let authorities know. The case needs to be closed so that the resources used to continue investigating can be used on unsolved cases. LE is not under any obligation to her family to disclose her whereabouts since she was an adult when she disappeared but I am sure they need to tell them that she is no longer missing.

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  9. You guys crack me up. It's like you're not understanding plain English. I give up. I'll keep my fingers crossed for this to end with Maura's best interests the winner here.

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    1. The only way you would know what Maura's best interests are, is if you know what happened to her. I am going to assume that you, like all the rest of us, do not know what happened to Maura. Thus you do not know if finding her is or is not in her best interest. After the Cleveland case, I cannot believe that anyone would not want a missing woman found. If Maura just wants to be left alone, then she can contact law enforcement and tell them to stop looking for her. She does not have to see her family, or give media interviews or anything like that. At the very least we should eliminate the possibility that Maura is in Quebec. Sure, we cannot prove a negative, but if Renner and company puts up thousands of posters, gives TV interviews up there, etc, and there are no solid leads, then I would be pretty sure that Maura is not there. After ten years, someone would know her face by now.

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    2. Hi Rose,

      Not saying I know what they are, just that I hope it works out in her best interests.

      I really wish people would stop bringing up her being held captive to me. I have already said that if that's the case, I hope this all leads to her being helped. My point is not about that possibility, for the 10th or so time, with all due respect.

      I'm pretty sure that if Maura is alive and well and knows this guy is looking for her, she views him as a creep.

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    3. And if Maura is alive to view him as a creep, so what? If she's spent the last 10 years not giving a shit that the lives of her friends, family, distant relatives, aquaintances and the entire town of haverhill Nh have been upheaved because she couldn't face her life, then maybe she deserves to be hunted down. she should have contact LE and made it known that she didn't want to be found. And if she ISN'T still alive, then she deserves to have that mystery solved too. We can't just allow young women to go missing all over the place and do nothing.

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    4. So what if she does? She is a missing person, and, as such, people are going to look for her. In fact, it was what law enforcement and her friends and family have asked the public to do. If she thinks it is creepy, oh well. Tough sheet for her. Surely she understood that one of the consequences of disappearing would be that people would come looking for her.

      BTW, if Maura was in "serious trouble" and that is why she left, then she REALLY needs to be found. I assume that by serious trouble most people mean legal trouble. If she committed a crime, then she should be prosecuted and punished. If someone else committed a crime against her, then that person needs to be prosecuted and punished.

      If Maura just felt like starting a new life, fine, but A LOT of public resources have gone to finding her. She at least owes the tax payers of New Hampshire the courtesy of letting them know that they do not need to expend any more resources looking for her.



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    5. Knock knock Rose, anybody home? You seem to be attaching yourself to one word and making an argument out of it when none was really there. And like I said, already expressed my opinion on "if she's in trouble." I don't know why you keep arguing with me about it.

      Again, I hope this all works out in Maura's best interests and that she's not collateral damage for this random guy's profit/benefit. End of story, Rose.

      Melios - maybe she doesn't care about her family for good reason. You have no clue what their family was like.

      If she's not alive, I hope they can figure that out.

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    6. Gotta strongly agree with Melios and Rose here. If Maura is alive and well she bears at least some responsibility to call the search off. Whatever horrible things she may have been running from, it's been ten years. I don't think it's as if Boston's notorious Irish Mafia or some other group of assassins was after her - it that were the case she would have run much further than Sherbrooke.

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    7. Jack, you have no idea what she was running from. 10 years obviously has not been long enough, if she is alive at all. Also, she has no responsibility to anyone. It's a shame that people go to NH to trespass and bother residents, but that's not her fault. Additionally, her case is cold. Not worked on so much.

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    8. I beg to differ with Louis on the "responsibility" issue.

      If Maura is alive and wants to remain hidden it is very much her responsibility to communicate that to someone. She would have no legal right to or expectation of privacy in this situation and no moral expectation of it either - this is a situation where it is perfectly reasonable and moral for people to be trying to find out what happened to her. How anyone could so vehemently suggest differently is perplexing. Lest we forget the grim discovery in Cleveland just a few short months ago.

      Again, I am with Rose and Melios on this one: if Maura is alive and wants to be left alone it is HER responsibility to let James and the NH CCU know that she's alive, well, and doesn't wish to be bothered.

      As the only person who knows what happened, she is logically the only one who can call this search off.

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    9. Thank you. A person DOES have a responsibility to let people know she is okay if public funds are being used for her search. I am calling bullshit on the "leave Maura alone" line of thinking. Assuming Maura is alive and simply started a new life, then she lost the right to be left alone the moment she ran off without letting anyone know not to look for her.

      BTW, the interest of the public is perfectly legitimate argument to support finding Maura. It is in the interest of the public and the state of New Hampshire to find people who disappeared within their jurisdiction. If I had to balance the interest of a private person to disappear against the interest of the public to solve crimes and missing person cases, then I am going to have to go with the public interest argument.

      Because any number of things could have happened to a missing person, missing people need to be found even if that missing person would rather not be found.

      Think of this: they found Brandi Stahr alive and well 7 years after she went missing. Guess what? She told her family that she still did not want to talk to them and that she was happy where she was. She had the right to do that and so she did. Meanwhile, in those 7 years, there was lots of speculation that she had been murdered. Who knows how much public money went into her case? Probably a lot. Meanwhile, all she had to do was call the police, let them know she was okay, and not to her mother where she was.

      Once your "need to disappear" becomes a potential criminal case, you now have a responsibility to set things straight.

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  10. The only thing that gets me is why does anyone think that telling any nh LE about a lead in Quebec is a thing? They have no jurisdiction there and Quebec police aren't obligated to check anything out. It's not another state it's another country. She's not a minor and there are no current charges against her. If she's there and James talks to her he should just mention that coming out of hiding would probably lead to a book and TV movie. Maura if you see this $$$ it's time.

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    1. The NH state police would have a good working relationship with the local Canadian police in areas like Sherbrooke, but only so far as asking them to check out a crucial lead, BOLA for wanted fugitive, etc.

      In this case since there is no real crime, Melios has a great point that any "leads" Renner passes along to the CCU are not likely to be followed-up on.

      On the other hand, if Renner were to conclusively prove Maura is alive and her whereabouts, Bill H is quite correct that such information would allow the CCU to close this case.

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    2. Melios, my thoughts are a different version of Jack's. If the CCU has evidence she is alive in another jurisdiction, more than likely they have a cooperative enough arrangement with that jurisdiction to have it checked out, particularly because - as was stated by LE in the hearing about releasing records to Fred - NH LE at least nominally has evidence of other crimes related to Maura's case. Their interest - and one that is shared by all jurisdictions, such that they tend to help each other out in this respect - is to close closeable cases and focus their highly limited resources on cases where investigation is truly needed. Moreover, MA has a dog in the hunt (there is, for instance, potentially, flight to avoid prosecution) and - per that same institutional, though not always universal - tendency to help out another jurisdiction in a case like this - MA also would want Quebec to check in with her and confirm that yes she is there. I am not familiar with the specifics of NH-Quebec relations or the various treaties or agreements at the federal level that might affect this, but I am quite certain of the basic principles I have stated.

      ~ John Green

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  11. Are there Vegas odds on Maura Murray yet? I think there are odds makers for almost anything. We need to get to the bottom of this. It could be a money making opportunity for people other than Renner:) zing.

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  12. If her family knows where she is, why would her father take legal action and spend the energy and resources into obtaining legal documents related to the case? If he knew all along where she is, wouldn't he likely stay quiet until the immediate newsworthiness wore off?

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    1. I have gone back and forth on this a lot. I do think it is entirely possible that Fred just had to know what the police know too. What I mean is that Fred could have known that Maura was alive and even where she lived, but he would not feel "safe" until he knew what information LE had on the case. He never got that information of course, but I could see a scenario in which Fred knew that Maura was alive, and yet he still would be determined to see what the police had in their files.

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    2. That's a great point, Rose. Like so many elements of this case, the facts support multiple theories equally well. I tend to think Fred did not know, but if he did - he's just the kind of guy who wouldn't rest easy until he knew what the cope knew.

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    3. I could see that kknc, if Fred knew where she was and that she was running away, then more than likely he would have led the police to think that she took her life and left it at that, he wouldn't have spent the time money and energy to search for her so long.

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    4. Not necessarily. To act the part maybe he had to show some sort of interest in the search? Also maybe he sued the PD for the legal records to see just how much information they in fact had- homicide/criminal/suicide case? So that he could alert her or someone who may know her whereabouts. It's quite possible he was simply curious to know if they suspected him in hiding her? Maybe they suspected he gave her the 4k to flee on, or paid off the friend that' was with them at dinner to keep her mouth shut? Regardless of the outcome, according to the police it has always been a criminal investigation (not homicide as stated by TlIK), and in order to cross into the Canadian border you cannot knowingly cross if your wanted for any crime. Meaning that even though us LE may not have jurisdiction, if she is I. Fact found she will be charged as a criminal and Canadian officials can prosecute her or have her sent to America. If the FBI gets involved they an cross I to canada and bring her back, so imn it quite sure why people insist she isn't a criminal and cannot face charges just because she's in canada. AT&T his time they cannot definitively charge her with criminal activity because all they have on her at this time is the cc fraud, once she is found other charges canan d will be added.

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    5. Holy crap I just thought of something else. I remember reading at some point that FM was about to lose his home. If I'm not mistaken I also believe MM wasn't due for court on the CC fraud until May. What if FM was pursuing legal action against LE for "negligence" in finding MM in hopes of gaining money? Maybe he and MM plotted together to help each other?

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    6. Wow you are just so amazingly brilliant MTS thing! Just what criminal grounds are LE using as a means to pursue MM case?? WHAT CRIMINAL CHARGES HAVE BEEN FILED?? LE is investigating case as a HOMICIDE! This has been announced to public in statement from LE!!

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  13. I hate to ask such a gruesome question, but how much would an abortion cost in NH in that time period? Or perhaps what would the cost in Canada have been?
    Not suggesting she was pregnant, but Fred claims to have had $4k on him.

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  14. Whilst I find some of the posts on here a tad hysterical, I think that given the tax-dollars that have gone into finding Maura, the level of public interest is entirely justified.

    If Maura fled of her own free will and didn't take the time to notify authorities of her whereabouts (pretty sure LE could've kept them from her dad or whoever else she didn't want to know) then there were far cleaner and tidier ways of doing this.

    As I said on the previous article, up until even this time last week I was really warming to the theory of Maura being alive. But having gone back through so much of the case since then, I can't look passed the crash-site - how anyone else can with any level of certainty is beyond me.

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    1. @Dougsy — I don't think very many of us claim any level of certainty about what happened. In fact, it seems that the only people who do claim certainty are those who insist that MM was "abducted, murdered, case closed, nothing more to talk about, those are the FACTS" ("facts" usually written in all caps). Those folks might turn out to be right — but for the rest of us there are so many strange and compelling circumstances in the case that we are forced to keep our minds open to a variety of possibilities.

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  15. I cannot remember how or when I first became aware of James Renner and this blog, but it has been a long time for sure. In fact, like so many others, I contacted him via email to express my interest and offer any help. As former LE and then criminal prosecutor (retired) I thought I could furnish some insight. He responded immediately and with sincere gratitude to anything I could offer. However, as I continued to follow the blog I realized how much information James had gathered and analyzed and was impressed with his level of insight. I read his novel and watched his short video on J.D. Salinger. My opinion, for what its worth, is that he has a genuine talent for exploring things unexplained. I think that is what has drawn everyone to this site to begin with. To offer opinions on his ulterior motives is unwarranted. As I learned long ago, if you have nothing nice to say, you should remain silent. No one here has put in the incredible amount of brain energy on this except James, with the exception of course of her family. I, personally, have assumed from the moment I first learned of Maura that she had met an untimely death. I base it on simple stats. Thousands of adults have gone missing who have never been found and their disappearances have remained a mystery. Gruesome as it may sound, one must conclude that most all have met untimely deaths at the hands of another. Sure, we read the news about the incredible exceptions, but logic tells us that if someone is not found after years of looking, death is the likely answer. Which brings me to the reason for this post. James and his associates may or may not be on to something. I cannot know this for sure, nor can anyone else. But I can say that I am intrigued enough to have followed this site and thought about all the posts and all the opinions. I have read the haters and disbelievers along with the supporters and believers and can only say this: James is a great thinker, investigator and writer. He has untold followers reading and thinking and getting involved with opinions and simple comments. To my way of thinking we all owe him our gratitude for entertaining our curiosities and forcing all of us to free our minds and use our noodles for some cognitive and logical thinking - something most of us don't do much anymore. I thank you James and hope your efforts are rewarding to you no matter the outcome. If you write the book, I will read it. So will all the others here.

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    1. Couldn't have said it better.

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    2. Well said. And best wishes to James Renner.

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    3. Mr A what exactly do mean by" untimely death?" Homicide, suicide, natural causes (medical condition) ??? What stats are you referring to? Homicide stats? Plz be a bit more specific regarding these above statements in your post. Thanks

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    4. You've resurfaced there time line. Why were you offering financial support to MM's aunt to find her?

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  16. All the action seems to happen when I am unable to read the blog for a couple weeks!
    In a way I am excited it's happening up here in the great white north.
    Cam the Canadian

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