Thursday, December 12, 2013

What a Waste of Time **UPDATED AGAIN**

Here's what happened with the Maura look-alike photograph that surfaced this week and eventually led back to Hanson:

Concerned that things were escalating, I called the Hanson, PD last night to look into it. They spoke to the woman and her husband. The woman in the photograph is not Maura.

What could have ended after one simple returned phone call or email, instead resulted in getting a lot of peoples' hopes up.

I don't know that we'll ever know why Maura's SS number was mixed up with these folks, but it doesn't appear related to her disappearance.

Consider this a dead end and move on.

Thank you for your help and for listening to me when I asked you not to identify the woman in the photos. I'm proud of the way we came together. Another let down but maybe closer to the real answer...

**UPDATED**
Yes, I'm as mystified by all the weird coincidences with this lead: the social, the similarities, the reaction, etc. But the police have said it's not her. NH police have the info if they want to pursue it any further. Let's trust them.

Feel free to discuss, but I will delete any comment that contains personal info such as location or name.

Be nice.

And also, thank you for the kind words. I don't know what I could have done differently, but we all make mistakes and sometimes what looks like good info, really exciting info, just doesn't pan out.

**UPDATE 2**
I was just shown proof-positive evidence that the woman in the pictures, though strikingly similar, is not Maura Murray. It's not her. Sorry. Don't post names. The mystery isn't here. I know it's disappointing, but move on.

145 comments:

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    1. I think if you are going to make this claim you'll need to say it for yourself. I think I am in the same position as a lot of readers here, that saw Maura's case profiled on "disappeared" and found it compelling enough to follow. I would really love to see the mystery solves both for my own curiosity and for the sake of Maura's siblings and friends. So if you have some evidence that renner is actually a fraud who wants to mess with people rather than an author who wants to tie up loose ends before putting out a book that highlights this case and keeps it in the spotlight just a little bit, you need to say why you think that. People that follow this blog for legit reasons (rather than to just troll) deserve to know why you are saying this so they can determine if they want to focus their efforts elsewhere.

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    3. Unfortunately, that is how it went down. Wish there had been a different outcome.

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    4. And, sorry, no trolls on this thread.

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    5. Good call on the trolls James. I am pretty sure that there are a small group of people constantly getting new IDs to come in here and go on other forums to attack, denigrate and probably willfully waste resources by distorting the conversation in bad faith. Would not be surprised if some of those same people attempt to do that same thing via false tips submitted to you. I know for a fact now - I have confirmed it, at least to my satisfaction - that a relative of Maura's is one of these people. This very healthy and productive and informative discussion - which is also investigatively useful, as a legion of smart people here jump all over, with research and analysis, the raw information you provide. By applying a simple rule, I think you keep it that way: any comment (or account name) aimed at denigrating another participant, as opposed to constructively addressing substantive points, gets axed. Fortunately, the registration requirement automates most of this, for the most most ill-intended - namely the aforementioned group, whose most used Topix handles I wont mention because everyone knows them already - are TERRIFIED of ever being discovered for who they are.

      ~ John Green

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    6. As to the substance of the removed comment, with its account name meant to survive is removal:

      What is so ugly about a writer wanting his books to sell? I can guarantee you that with his academic credentials, James could make a lot more money investing this time in many other endeavors, such as: hacking out magazine articles on fee per article, participating in seminars, writing college text books, which he could then make the text book for his classes, writing a column for a newspaper. All of these things, present value, would likely earn him a steadier additional income than this effort, for he has no guaranteed rate of return on this effort. So if your suggestion is that this is somehow a money grab, it is the all time stupidest effort at getting rich quick because it defeats the purpose of getting rich quick schemes, which are built around not doing a lot of work and making a lot of money. I mean no offense James, but this scheme, if you billed out all the work you have done and personal costs you have incurred will most likely be an utter failure in terms of a get rich quick scheme, EVEN IF THE BOOK IS HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL.

      Your comment and account name really has no basis. I doubt anyone needed my comments to see that, but just in case anyone had some doubts I wanted to rub some salt of truth into your psychological wounds that have oozed here into this otherwise meaningful blog.

      ~ John Green

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  2. I will but am curious to your opinion.i believe James is very close to finding maura alive.

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  3. Urgh! I also look quite a lot like a porky version of Maura. If you contacted me about it I would reply and say "no, I'm not her". Morons.

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  4. Where exactly was this photo that showed someone that looked like Maura? I didn't see it on any earlier posts

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    1. Renner wrote that he would take down the photos and posts about this in order to protect the mystery woman's identity if he learned that she was not Maura.

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  5. How can Renner be a fraud? This is a true crime blog. He's doing an investigation into a case that's frustrated people and detectives for a decade. There's going to be ups and downs. It happens. But, I'd like to find out why Maura's ss# is tied to people who follow the case and acted strangly when exposed.

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    1. ... and he posts his stuff under his own verifiable name, unlike the ______ and _____ and cowards who hit and run bs like this.

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    2. Yes James is very brave. You should see the pieces of s*** he dealt with as a reporter in Cleveland before he took on Maura's case, but I'm pretty sure the FBI has put most of them away by now. He is amazing and Ohio is very proud of him. I'm in my mid-30s now, but have been reading him for many years. He is a true talent and I don't understand why the Murray family doesn't embrace him more. If my daughter were missing, we would have tea every Sunday with James to discuss leads, if he had the time.

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    3. Well said JLB, and thanks for sharing the perspective. I don't like everything that James has done and have had conflicts with him, but in the end, I really have a lot of respect for what he is doing and how he does it. When people just pull stuff out of their ass to post here denigrating him, it raises the hatred of bullshitters hair on my neck.

      ~ John Green

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  6. Are you positive the police told you the truth? Maybe they are under orders to protect Maura. Or maybe, if the woman WAS Maura, she lied to them because she didn't want to be found.

    Think about it--if the woman were in fact Maura, isn't that exactly how things would (probably) go down? She doesn't want to be found, after all--by the police or anyone else.

    Not saying it's likely, just very possible.

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    1. How can police rule the woman in the picture out so quickly?makes me think perhaps witness protection and they are all closing ranks

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    3. Interesting comment SAH. One of those ideas that you have to consider, but solely thinking "in the box" about a situation like this simply leaves you baffled.

      I am trying to imagine a scenario where police could be ordered to protect Maura, by which I take you to mean "actively participate in and attempt to deflect with disinformation perfectly legal research into the identity of another person," which I infer you mean because that is my read of what is at hand. It would involve only either a judicial order or an order from a government body with superior jurisdiction, legally or practically. It could conceivably also involve a corrupt police department, but I will leave that aside.

      Specifically, I can only think of three situations, off the top of my head: (1) this person is in a witness protection program (which I would guess involves a Federal law that prevents local law enforcement from revealing information if they know it), (2) this person has some relationship with issues of national security (the DOD and State Department have, rightly or wrongly, established their absolute ability to compel anyone to do anything in that context) or (3) she got a restraining order against Renner (but it is hard to imagine a missing girl, subject of a very expensive investigation in a neighboring jurisdiction, even seeking a restraining order to prevent a journalist from identifying and locating her, much less getting one).

      If she had legal remedies against Renner - i.e., a way to get an order to the police to "protect" her by enforcing it - they would be in tort, meaning that they are things like liable and slander. But there is no case here to made for a tort (it is legal to ask a woman if she is Maura Murray and it is legal to talk about her online so long as no untrue statements are offered as true, it is legal to look at her public facebook page and it is legal to access publicly available information about her). Moreover, even if there was some claim this woman could bring against Renner, if she is Maura it is hard to imagine her seeking the publicity and necessary or possible disclosure in a court record that could come with such a strategy.

      I am not 100% sure of all this, but it is what comes to mind when I swished around your very interesting idea. To you or anyone: can anyone think of a situation where such an order is in play? I mean, the concept has some appeal, as it would explain other things in the case, such as the officer at Corolla accident hanging up on Renner when asked why he did not arrest the drunk Maura (which is conceivable; some jurisdictions will simply take a DUI home unless other factors exist) but which seems all the more curious now given his reaction. And such as the freak ex police chief in NH who chased James off his legal, door knocking approach onto his property with a baseball bat.

      You know, it seems like A GREAT MANY PEOPLE who have either tangible or incidental relationship to this case are possibly under orders to lie, confuse and derail efforts to find her.

      ~ John Green

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    4. two thoughts...
      1. Occam's razor is a concept in critical thinking that basically says the least complicated solution is almost always right
      2. Conspiracies are rare and almost always uncovered because people cannot resist blabbing.
      these two points together may be thought of as "in the box" thinking but I see it as realistic thinking. this case has a lot of odd factual points in it on its own but if it is ever solved, I think the results will prove to be simple and retrospectively relatively obvious. to believe there is a largescale police code of silence to me defies logic, particularly after the father tried to sue the cops.
      These hang ups or silences or chase offs, I think, may be being taken out of context. Renner didn't get onto this case until a few years after, when many of these people had probably already had the media ask them similar questions... while many people on here seemingly only heard about the case from a misrepresentative tv show some years after the fact, the case was a big deal when it happened in New England and was covered extensively by the media. It even knocked the weather out of lead position on the news some nights. The father was all over the tv and in the newspaper.

      I think the cop hung up on Renner because he viewed the question as a personal attack on his competence as a policeman and had probably been asked the question before with a microphone in his face. I was researching another true crime case a while back and one retired cop refused to talk to me because he thought I was a crank or a police buff. I didn't think it was a conspiracy. I just thought he must have had some bad past experiences. Another cop talked to me for an hour. No one had talked to him before because he retired and moved away.

      I also think in this digital age it would be difficult for MM to hide out in a foreign country (how did she get in you now need a passport!) without leaving any traces. She doesn't seem capable of identity theft to such a level, particularly with people looking for her... just my thought.

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    2. OK, fair enough. But *why* would she have James Renner blocked?

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  8. How can there be so many dead-ends associated with MM and this case?!?
    I suppose that is what makes it simultaneously so very fascinating and so very frustrating.
    Hopefully, she will be found soon, and my fingers are crossed that she's found healthy and enjoying a new life someplace!

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    1. Because people lie.
      You can make up a cover story but then you have to try and hide facts when they don't fit.
      It seems to me that there is a wide circle of people associated with Maura who committed to or where coerced into a storyline that was not true - either to protect Maura or to protect others. I think part of the family knows the truth and were protecting her from other family members. (I think that the only way all these people who cared about Maura would lie is if the directive came from the family.)
      So when I read about the reactions of people like Sara A. or the physical or media absence of MM's mom, it says to me that these people are so uncomfortable with having to uphold the lie and so freaked out that they may say something to blow the story, that they almost need to hide from it.
      I am open to all theories, but that's what I keep coming back to.

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    2. Good point about peoples' reaction to secrets, Jonalisa.

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    3. Hey there 86 and Jonalisa.

      I think that 86's question is a very edifying one to consider. Once, while driving back from NH, I was playing around with this idea in my head. If you were (to use an apropos pos analogy) lost in the woods and all the trails you tried led to dead ends, you would probably eventually start to surmise that you were walking in circles defined by some single barrier, the whole of which you had not yet perceived. (For what it is worth, people do have a tendency, if they are not skilled orienteers, to walk in circles when they get lost in the back woods.)

      For instance, in such a situation, you might think, "well, every trail kind of fade out and gets muddy. Maybe I am stuck in area of land surrounded by a huge bog on three sides and my only way out is to backtrack as best I can."

      It feels like there is such a barrier, analogously, external to our perceptions here. This situation being more complicated than being in the deep woods, it is correspondingly harder to divine what it might be. Jonalisa cited one possibility and certainly the behaviors of a lot of people around this case suggest a deliberate lack of forthcomingness, much more so than in other similar cases.

      In addition, the concept of fear has seemed to define some of this recalcitrance and at least a few have interpreted Maura's actions during the five strange days before the accident to imply that she was scared of something, including a former teammate of hers at UMASS, who knew her personally.

      ~ John Green

      ~ John Green

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    4. That's a great analogy, John. I would hazard a guess that facts help define the paths and there are seemingly very few. Additionally, it is hard to discern what is deliberate obfuscation and what isn't.

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    5. I think the relatives are just trying to protect MM's reputation from what they view as a sensationistic, negative media. I doubt they would view it as lying. The Disappeared show sure put as positive a spin on MM and the family as possible. As we know there were a lot of unpleasant facts that were not mentioned.

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  9. MISIDENTIFICATION OUTRAGE!!!!!

    Seriously though, I will never understand the behavior of those contacted in connection with the MM case. Just to echo previous statements - WHO BEHAVES LIKE THIS? You don't shut the blinds and hide in the closet when someone knocks on the door.
    Perhaps if someone contacts me to say that I look like a missing person I will then delete all forms of social communication, ignore the simple request, and then troll who ever asked the question. Makes sense.

    On a similar note, the other day at a McDonald's Drive thru when they asked if I would like fries with my burger, I jumped out of my car and hid behind some trees.

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    1. LOL, some people just find it easier and more entertaining to be jerks.

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    2. lol... that is so spooky!!! HOW DO THEY KNOW YOU LIKE FRIES????

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  10. I don't see how police could determine whether or not it was Maura without a DNA test.

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    1. Maybe she showed the cops her marriage license and social security card?

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    2. Both of which could be faked.

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    3. I agree with JWB.
      In fact, if I were this woman, and I had even an inkling about the case and the buzz that her photo created this week, I would be volunteering to the police to take a DNA test. Otherwise, everything about her remains so mysterious and open-ended. and the controversy will only continue.

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    4. I am pretty sure that if James had reason to doubt that the proof he was offered, apparently by the police, that this is not Maura, he would say so, or at least indicate that in some way. For one thing, Renner has gone to jail on principle before, which he shared here. For another thing, a police department in Boston can do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to compel him because there is no crime at hand and because he lives in a different state. If there were a crime, the DA could seek to extradite him, but the police in MA could not directly compel him to do anything. But there is not a crime, so even going to the DA is not available to them. So it is really hard to imagine Renner shying away from the truth because some police department with no authority whatsoever to compel him to do anything told him to.

      Finally, I can imagine confirming someone's identity through records. But even if you go so far as to state that these records could be faked, and recognizing that local police don't always - due to resources - make perfect decisions about when to scratch harder at the surface, there's practical and obvious possible ways such proof could have been tendered: "well, she's five foot three James, so unless you unless you are trying to tell us that 4 inches of her is still missing ... not her."

      ~ John Green

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    5. @ John Green - could you elaborate on the Boston PD connection to this latest matter? I was under the impression that Renner's PD contact was with Hanson PD (as mentioned in this post) and also earlier with the local PD in the hairstylist's community. If the Boston PD is involved, as you implicate that certainly adds an interesting wrinkle (i.e. what's the connection to Boston for them to get involved?). Curiouser and curiouser...

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    6. Where I wrote Boston I should have written metro Boston or MA, consistent with the way it is written elsewhere in the post.

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  11. Where's Mrs. Forman the dreamer now? I suspected this wasn't Maura, none the less, it was a lead that James had to follow. Rick Baker did the same thing with much less circumstantial evidence. Back to Quebec City focus now.

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    1. Hey Trench, Just let it go

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    2. Mrsforman is at work making a living. If you would have read all of my comments you would see where I CLEARLY stated that in my opinion I didn't feel that that was MM. I said I felt like James Renner may be on to something because of the reactions of these individuals. Before becoming a smart ass maybe you should get your facts straight. It is very possible the cops did a fingerprint, etc and identified the individual. It's possible that they are somehow connected to MM but want to take credit for it and not some "crime writer". We do not know what went down on either end and I would appreciate if you would GET all of your facts straight before implying anything about me.

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    1. A lot of comment removals... is there something specific we should not be posting about? I apologize if I went somewhere I shouldn't, but for the life of me I don't know what I said that was inappropriate.
      I'd rather know, as I don't want to unknowingly go there again.

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    2. Names, I think. Did you inadvertantly say one of their names? By the way James, if it is only names, why don't you just edit the posts and replace the names with XXXXXX?

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    3. I don't recall. That's the problem - it gets removed and then you have to try and remember what you said. I think it was about which photo was recognized in Canada.

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  13. I've followed this blog for about a year now. Like so many others, I became interested in the case after watching the episode on Disappeared. My husband is in law enforcement, and when I showed him the side by side photos he did a double take. His words? "If that isn't her, I'd be pretty surprised". How frustrating.

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  14. James, you mentioned in a previous blog post of a man calling you with info relating to Maura, but never got back with you. You stated he sounded African American. Julie Murray has a pic on her profile of her with an African American man.

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  15. I've been following this case closely and as much as I'd like it if Maura were alive for the sake of her family, I'm fairly certain she is no longer with us. I believe she left that night with a half-hearted intention of suicide. She drank for three hours while driving and considering her fate. In her drunken state she crashed her car. Faced with another car wreck, she panicked at the scene and fled on foot. I believe the reports of her being spotted running 4-5 miles from the scene. I believe she eventually made her way into the woods, drank the rest of her alcohol, passed out and eventually succumbed to the elements.

    It's sad, but I think you should give up this chance. I'd be happy to be wrong, but wherever she is, you should let her and her family rest in peace.

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    1. Wouldn't they have found her remains by now? Didn't they do a fairly extensive search of the woods around the site?

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    2. Possibly. I lean toward that not being her end. IMO, it will turn out that she has been the victim of an opportunist, or she ran-ran-ran and hit reboot on her identity.
      I've heard that many suicides have a final period of happiness, where everyone remarks that they seemed relaxed and joyful. My spouse told me a similar story of a classmate that took her own life. On the day-of she was very bubbly and happy. I think that is when the decisions has been made and they are letting go of all that has mired them in misery. I don't get that sense from MM. Then again, perhaps that is what her trip was.

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    3. I would like to know more from the poster regarding the Mauramissing site. Did they in fact say that they believe that she started a new life and if so, did you save the email?

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    4. jwb - Not sure about info from the mauramissing site. I've tried to gloss over the other MM sites and this is the best.

      I believe Hoss aka. Hossein Baghdadi said that she talked about running away.

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    5. I am referring to someone that posted on this forum said that they were told by the administer that Maura started a new life. That site is run by the family.I would like to hear more on it and possibly a confirming email.

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    6. The administrator of the MM Missing site.

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    8. sah, I believe jwb is talking about a poster who said she had received an email from the administrator of the MMM site. It was in the middle of the hundreds of comments on another blog post James wrote. Please correct me if I am wrong though! I, too am also interested in hearing more about that email the poster recieved, especially given Maura's brother's song that he wrote a few years ago about her leaving.

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    9. Who is to know what goes on behind the scenes. I have to assume that Renner does not show all his cards on this blog, At least I wouldn't. Perhaps take the confirmation with a grain of salt, say we're moving on, and then verify through other means. Let's hope.
      You have to assume that if MM were to be found and directly asked, she and any counterpart would deny-deny-deny. Perhaps she is lying to her mate/spouse/boyfriend/partner and they genuinely defend in ignorance.
      Most people deny the truth when they are confronted with it..

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    10. JWB I believe you are referring to a post I submitted. I sent the link to Renner and we are unsure of who in fact posted it. I had made a comment as a response to someone else on a Topix forum, I basically said maybe she WANs trying to fake her own death but it didn't go accordig to planned etc. someone under the name (I believe it was) FindMM, they responded and simply said "yes, she could have faked her death" that's all it said, nothing more nothin less. If you would like for me to post it I would be more than happy too. I have no idea I'd whomever posted that is affiliated with Maura in anyway, I'm assuming by the simple response and lack of information that it is quite possibly a friend or someone who truely knows the case and believes she ran (I could be wrong). Also, if the family is 100% sure she's deceased why did they not try and declare her legallyd ead after a year of being gone and draw on the life insurance, since they were in financial trouble? If they did in fact try and declare her legally dead and the law refused the request then they seem to think froma. Legal aspect that she's more of a fugitive than a deceased person.

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    11. Jacob, we don't know that Maura drank for three hours before the accident. We don't know that she drank that evening at all, or if she did drink some wine, that she was impaired.

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  16. Do you have definitive proof that this woman is not Maura? I was so anxious to wake up and see an update confirming her identity. The resemblance is uncanny.

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    1. That's a good question for James, no sense contininung discussing a dead end lead if it is 100% not Maura.

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  17. My brother has a vacation home about 100 yards from the spot where Maura crashed her car. During the search for her they found remains of a man who had been missing for more than 20 years. She disappeared on the side of a mountain with thick forests and steep drops, if she really did go into the woods I am not surprised they haven't found her remains. That being said, I think she is alive.

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    1. Good point, Amy. That also brings to mind the Learjet that crashed in the woods in NH on December 24, 1996 and despite extensive searches it took them almost three years to find it (finally found on November 13, 1999).

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    2. These are two terrific points. Very illuminating. Thanks for sharing them.

      Amy, I am most curious about your brother's take. There is an abandoned house about 100 yards from the site, about which I got a hold of some arrestingly interesting information, which I have never been able to definitively link back to Maura or the Murrays, beyond anecdotal and intriguing but ultimately insufficient connections, but which is nonetheless hard to ignore. (It is not information about the people who owned the house, but instead about people who seemed to have spent time there or been associated with a guest there). Were I to give you my email address, do you think you could ask your brother some questions for us?

      ~ John Green

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    4. Sure, I'd be happy to ask him some questions. He and I actually talk about this pretty frequently, though he seems to think she was abducted by someone offering her a ride (I'm always like, so a murderer just happens to be driving by in the 7 minute window between the bus driver seeing her and the cops showing up?? But stranger things have happened!) For a while he thought it was the cop who Liko Kenney shot, who from what I remember, lived right up the street, but I'm pretty sure that theory was debunked.

      *I deleted my first comment because I put that the cop shot Liko, but it was the other way around.

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  19. Ok itwas MRS Forman on DEC 10th

    "In response to what you have said njf520 I posted on another blog and the person who's in charge of the mauramurrayismissing.com website answered my post and said that they do believe she tried to fake her own death. That being said if it were my kid regardless of if it were a hunch, or a sighting, or someone said they seen my kids ghost. You bet yours went ass I would fundraisers like an sob to get the money to investigate every area I could. The fact they believe she faked her own death- you damn right I'd come up with the money to at least go and see she were alive even if she wanted nothing else to do with me. "

    This is what I was talking about

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  20. James, I have nothing but mad respect for you. But I am not buying for one minute that a woman whose Social Security Number was mixed up with Maura's just happens to have a BFF that is a dead ringer for Maura. The changes of that are so astronomically small that I am STILL convinced that photo showed a 30-something Maura. If I were the Murrays, I would put a tail on that mystery woman.

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    1. I agree. Plus the actions of the husband and her friends on Facebook is peculiar; not to mention calling the police when James was simply trying to relay to her that Maura's name is connected to her ss#.

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    2. Yeah, and who lives in the same town with a Topix obfuscator. And their weird reactions, when a readily available way to conclude the matter existed. I see your point - my assertion above that I trust Renner's unstated proof - notwithstanding.

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    1. James could you please tell me why my post was removed?

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  22. I continue to believe that she may in fact be Maura. I would continue looking into this lead if I were you.

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  23. Maybe James was told more but cannot disclose it? I highly doubt this is a situation of witness protection as someone has said, if it were I don't think her SSN would be mixed up with someone else's. Also, if it were her and she's in hiding all law enforcement has to say is yes it's her but she wishes to not be found, legally they have to honor that as would JR. Plus as I posted on the now deleted forum: if someone in Canada insists they've seen her (multiple people at that) the photos show would be of Maura at her previous weight. The photo he had posted of a larger "Maura" had to have some doctoring of sorts to even resemble her. This being said, if in fact Maira was seen in Canada she would more than likely be approximately the same weight she was at the time of her disappearance otherwise it would be hard to get a positive ID unless they were showing photos of a heavier Maura.

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  24. James did say that if Maura reached out and said she was alive, he would drop it. Do we think that is what has happened?

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    1. Bit he never released the name of the person or the husband whom he said was the friend of LG, so he could have simply said yep it was her, case closed and not release her name and then remove the photos and simply say it's at the request of the individual. I don't think Renner would leave us all hanging if he was told it was her. I believe he would have kept her alias/location anonymous and simply told us that she was confirmed or that she is alive but wishes to remain anonymous for her safety/ safety of her child, etc. I guess we will all just have to wait and see what happens. I was wandering if maybe he's holding out on specifics as part of his book- if he broadcast here that it was her then how many of us would really go buy the book?

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    2. The state of New Hampshire still has Maura classified as missing on their website. I would think that would be changed if they knew otherwise.

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  25. I still think the woman in the photo is maura.james could we have a poll like we have had previously to see what everyone thinks?it would be so much easier than scrolling through comments

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  27. Greetings. I must confess, I've long been guilty of silent observations, lurking on the pages here, reading posts and have recently felt compelled to join in with my occasional two cents worth of meandering speculations and ideas. I, too, was first introduced to this case by the "Disappeared" series, which I've watched quite a few times, in the hopes of gaining even a vague understanding of events/happenings that resulted in such a peculiar disappearance and, yet, despite my readings, studies, research, ponderings, etc., have not made much headway in either of the many courses one could take. I do commend Mr. Renner for his dedication and attention he brings to this case, as without it, most likely it would have been swept into the dusty files on a shelf, as countless others, and long forgotten. It is my theory, for what it’s worth, that Maura DID run after crashing her Saturn that cold February evening, she ran from yet more charges that might have been brought against her, from stress, anxieties and, most likely, even made the four or five miles (even further perhaps) where a last possible sighting was reported (although I do doubt that recount, as it is hard to identify anyone in darkness, much less see facial features to identify one with certainty). She ran and deviated from the roadway, at some point, to make her way into the mountains, feeling assured somewhat, as it was not her first trip into mountainous terrain, with the intention of waiting out the inevitable police arrival and with thoughts of returning to regain her car and continue on to her destination. All the minor details, AAA card left in her car, rag in tailpipe, disconcerting phone calls, email to professors, boxes packed (I do think she intended leaving for good), etc., are all exactly as they appear, no hidden meanings, just ordinary events that took place. It is my belief, after her entry into the mountainous terrain, she at some point lost her bearings and succumbed to the elements. I understand this theory is so hard to accept, as in all appearances, she was an attractive, young college girl with life waiting in the wings, yet, one must also take into account her mindset, the stress, pressure, criminal charges pending, including other happenings, no doubt, that have yet been divulged but can only be summarized. I find it HIGHLY unlikely that she encountered an untoward individual seeking unsuspecting victims to do harm, given the time frame known, including her running down a roadway for several miles, it’s too coincidental (not saying impossible). On the other hand, I have tried to keep an open mind, look at other possibilities (the Canada theory has grown somewhat and is a plausible avenue). I do wonder how much a radius was given in the searches of the terrain, if anyone knows? Thank you.
    Laura

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    1. I tend to agree with you. All of her actions before disappearing tells me she left intentionally and for good. Looking at all the scenarios, I would rank the following as the likelihood of what happened:
      1) Suicide – she bought excess alcohol, lots of issues going on in her life
      2) Accident – was trying to run away and succumbed to the elements or hit by car
      3) Abducted – highly unlikely, however and eyewitness saw someone resembling her 4 – 5 miles away after accident, this gives an abduction more credence as more people would have passed her
      4) Voluntarily Missing, in hiding – 10 years with no real solid lead? Hard to go off the radar for that long
      We all hope it’s scenario 4, but in my opinion the least likely. Websleuthers have a tendency to latch on to wild theories when more often than not there is a simple explanation.

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    2. I hope it is number 4 as well. My main problem with suicide is, where is her body? Unless she went off into a cave somewhere.....I just don't see how she would have killed herself and then subsequently hide her own body so well. If she were hit by a car, I would assume there would be some kind of evidence left behind. But it's not entirely impossible that someone hit her and quickly covered up the crime. That's a stretch though. So many questions with this case!

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    3. Good points MissJ. I wish I had all the answers. Suicide could have been in a remote area that hasn't been searched and like you say someone could have moved the body after hitting her.

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    4. My question is this, it's no big secret MM loved being in nature/hiking. If in fact she did intentionally/unintentionally end her life that night somewhere int he wilderness, after 10 years is it possible her remains could have been moved/scattered by animals? I've often heard finding bodies in colder climates is more difficult since things soften up after the ice melts and they tend to re freeze (don't know the truth to this). But, just curious to know if it's possible that her remains would have been relocated by animals.

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    5. @ MrsForman, It certainly is possible and very probable, depends on the type of animal and it's natural tendencies.

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    6. Lots and lots of black bears up that way (almost an infestation). They don't normally attack humans (like a brown bear would, for example) but they will definitely eat human remains (if someone had succumbed to the elements, for example).

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    7. Thanks for the response. That's what I was getting at (not being eaten, but more hauled away after death). This case is just so sad and mysterious. I really feel if the family would come forward with all their thoughts/concerns it could help more than they know.

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    8. Interesting point here all around. Jack, it is true that black bears are very cautious in general and in particularly toward humans. In fact, there are only a handful of cases in the last 50 years in the US of black bears killing someone and attacks are rare. Even when they charge, almost always it is a false charge, meant to drive a person off and end what they view as a dangerous situation.

      However, black bears are also opportunistic feeders. Contrary to widely held belief, they do not hibernate, per se. They slow down a lot and spend almost all their time sleeping in the winter, but they will get up and sluggishly move around now and then. If they find a source of food, they will bring it back to a den. It is not impossible that a bear could find a person who got lost in the woods half drunk, fell, hit her head and died of exposure, and not impossible that such a bear would drag that body back to its den. Bear dens tend to be in the remotest places of the back woods.

      Mind you, not what I guess actualy happened, but just wanted to add that fodder alongside your thesis.

      (There are many sources of information out there about black bears that may contradict what I have said, but if you seek out definitive sources, I am pretty sure that what I have said here is true. That said, if I got something wrong in my craw, I'd appreciate anyone providing superior information.)

      ~ John Green

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    9. Some bears will also make a small attempt to hide a food cache only yards from where they originally found whatever they are eating and continue to feed on it for a few days. And if you know what you are looking for, a bear cache is pretty easy to spot. But I tend to agree with JG on this one......very unlikely that a bear is a part of this equation. But one never knows!

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    10. Thanks for the additional info. In any case, a bear could well be a part of at least one of many different scenarios that each have their merits.

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    11. Just an FYI: The last time someone was killed by a black bear in New Hampshire was 1784.

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  29. I think all of this is just strange coincidence and doesn't mean anything. Part of the original entry reads...

    "When you run Maura's background, it shows that her social security number was mixed up with a (name omitted), who also lived in Mass. It's possible Maura was using her social security number."

    *** I'm assuming BACKGROUND means background check. In that case it wasn't given by someone in the know or an informant. It's coincidence, and more likely a clerical area than anything else. Also, the first 3 digits of a social security number represents the area of the country so it's not out of the realm of reason (name omitted) just happens to be in that area. Maura can't pull off credit card fraud back in 2003, I highly doubt she could pull off fraudulently using someone's social security number today or even back in 2003.

    Then...

    "I have attempted to locate (name omitted) with no luck. The only number out there goes to a voicemail that is full and has been for several months."

    *** Here James states he attempted to call but the call goes to voicemail.

    and here

    "***UPDATE***

    (name omitted) is going by (name omitted) now. And here's where it gets a little strange.

    She has me blocked on Facebook. Now, this is before I've spoken to her. I only just today left a message for her. Never tried to contact her through Facebook."

    Here he states that he left a message for her. Where? A different number? An email? Assuming he did leave her a message then she knew his name BEFORE she blocked him on Facebook.

    I think there's plenty of kooks, including some of the Murray's, that follow Maura's disappearance and (name omitted) just didn't want to be involved in any way. People are entitled to their privacy. It could be possible that maybe one of the Murray's, I'm sure at least one of them follow the blog, may have seen the blog entry and contacted the person asking them to block James.

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    1. I appreciate your perspective, but would like to take issue with one aspect of it. Do you have any evidence or insight saying that the SSN entanglement is "probably a clerical error." I have several saying it is not. For one thing, I asked Renner politely and he told me specifically what he'd found out from his PI re the SSN. Now, I know him personally at this point, so maybe that is why he was forthcoming with me. Using that information, I then sought out experts at the Social Security Administration and the IRS and asked them about the phenomenon of duplicate or redundant SSNs, their measures for finding instances of them and rectifying the situations. Their are stringent controls against clerical errors in terms of these organizations and the issuances and management of SSNs.

      In terms of a clerical error on a form somewhere (an application of some sort), it is still unlikely. Take an application for a driver's license. Once submitted, the "entity testing" protocols as they are called are not just tested when you apply, but they remain in the state's database and a national driver registry ... FOREVER. The reason for this is to control people who try to snooker phony IDs or evade suspensions by going to another state. So the DOT, not just the IRS and SSA are continually monitoring for entity inconsistencies against every SSN they ever received on an application. Moreover, they routinely merge their data sets. I once worked on a contract involving one of theses systems.

      Now, consider an employment application. If someone got a job that required a background check, the hit on the SSN by the organization doing the screen becomes a record of data in and of itself at all these organizations. In fact, that is why it shows up. Same with housing applications and loans. But if you get refused employment or a loan or an apartment because your SSN yielded contradictory information (more than one person) or because it was associated with some barred conduct (say, a felony conviction) YOU WOULD GET A NOTICE. So anyone in good faith who themselves made such a clerical error on such an application would know. And if you lost a job that you had just started based on a background screen and got a notice saying that this SSN (not yours) belongs to multiple people, your first reaction would be a relieved, "ah, that's not my SSN, I wrote it down wrong."

      It is not impossible that a clerical lurks. It happens. But with all the controls that exist and assumptions of normal, decent, civil behavior among the people involved, I don't think you can reasonably declare that it is more likely than not a clerical error. In fact, the end of the paragraph where you say that alludes to the reasons why it is certainly nowhere close to more likely that not a clerical error.

      I see the theme of your post and have no dispute with your right to feel that way. But on this point, I believe you are mistaken and I have tried to provide what I know to support that assertion.

      ~ John Green

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  30. David ,
    When I found the alias name, I also found a diff number than what JR probably tried the first time. I forwarded him that number and maybe that is why he was able to leave a message.

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  31. Some resources were wasted, but not by you Renner. The folks who wasted them were the folks who took the situation that arose to be all about them. ... "Hmmm, my SSN has been used by a girl whose been missing for ten years and for all anyone knows is being held by and Ariel Castro type freak ... okay, well, I am going to use this as an opportunity to act all outraged at the inconvenience to me of having to make ONE call to well-established and well-credentialed member of a university faculty and investigative journalist. Instead, I'll focus on saying mean shit to amd about him on Facebook, which is cool because it brings attention to me too and as my attitude already has shown, I am not only the center of the universe, but also THE universe itself. You know what, this is just like the time that annoying SOB got hit by a car out in front of my house. Like I am supposed to come outside and help or call 911. WTF!"

    In any case, the reason I say resources were not wasted is this: were this obvious issue ignored, it would have usurped more resources over time than it did here, if left lying unaddressed. To (analogic) wit: you know you dropped something at the camp ground and have shone the light everywhere, the next step is turning over all the unlikely rocks it could have wound up under. Otherwise, you leave knowing that you your search failed because you didn't do the work you could have done. Success, in that sense, is not defined by finding the answer but by ruling out the most likely possibilities, methodically and patiently, and hopefully - in the context of so sad a story so profoundly implicating the people of multiple communities - with the willing assistance of good samaritans, unlike these dopes who made it about them.

    ~ John Green

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    1. For real Green. I am with you 100%. I'm not on facebook so I don't know about what's gone on there, but I cannot begin to understand the secrecy here that is seemingly revolving around a simple case of mistaken identity.

      I've thought about it a fair amount in the past (well before any of this came up), like how would I react, if someone came to me based on a totally coincidental connection to a case along these lines. This is somewhat tangential, but I am basically a dead ringer for a currently missing person (a dude from Maine that incidentally disappeared just a couple months after Maura did)--the resemblance maybe isn't as ironclad as the one recently addressed on here, but it's close. In some pictures side by side we would be virtually indistinguishable, and we share a specific and pretty unusual facial feature to a T.

      I live halfway across the country, and as such have never actually been mistaken for the man in question, but I can guarantee that if such a thing did happen I would not only be immediately communicative with anyone who wanted clarification, but deeply apologetic about the misunderstanding and the renewed hope that may have arisen as a result.

      The reactions and/or lack thereof of the people involved are unfathomable.

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  33. JG or James, can you tell us when this SS# mix up took place. This Lady might not be Maura but it doesn't mean the hairstylist isn't somehow involved in possibly Helping Maura get started in a new life.

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    1. I can only tell you what I know. The mix up would have had to take place prior to mid-2011, which is around the time that I THINK Renner got the information.

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  34. Lots of strange developments in several top missing persons cases lately. Certainly has been interesting, Don't let any failure deter you. That's what makes these things so difficult to figure out.
    Trying to find a missing person is a NOBLE cause. It's also a tireless usually thankless effort. It can also be a dangerous one in many aspects.
    I laugh at the folks who criticize you for writing a book. I think you have more than a right to do it given your detailed research on the matter.
    As far as the photo... what a weird situation. Im outraged over the behavior of others sometimes. This is one of those times.

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  35. Mr. Renner and Mr. Green, I just want to thank you from the bottom of my heart
    for all the work and time you put into trying to find Maura. You guys are absolute
    heroes in my eyes....God Bless you both !!

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    1. I appreciate the kind words, but I think they are merited toward James only. I have been a hobbyist.

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  36. Keepthesearch, you nailed it!

    Not everyone has the ware with all (not sure if spelled right) to care about anyone else but themselves especially people they don't even know such as in this case. James took up crime writing because of the impact that AMY M had on him when he was younger so that tells me that he has compassion for others. Just because he puts his research into a book does not make him evil.

    Much of the drama could have been avoided if Mauras family and friends came forward to explain what they knew. I can understand that LE prob told them to hold back on certain info but for cripes sake it has been 10 years and you should ask yourself the question" How is that working for you?" I say Mauras past before Feb 9 2004 is crucial
    To finding what happened.


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  38. I've really have an issue with Sam Ledyard and how his latest post misrepresents the situation, and people on this blog.

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    1. Well said Hans. See my post below. Best to ignore Sam. I dont know what the post says and dont want to know. He is a dangerous and willful skewer of the discussion because - I think - his only concern is bringing attention on himself. (See more below).

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  39. Hans I felt the same way and expressed that I am done posting on his blog

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  40. Sam Quote: "A group of intelligent people who have followed this case for years convinced themselves that they had found Maura. I never would have thought that something like that could happen. My faith in identifications has gone from weak to virtually nonexistent."

    Really Sam??? Dumping on everyone for following a good lead? Unless you know more than letting on I say it slams us all.

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    1. Just my opinion, but a considered one with personally accrued evidence: if it is the sam I a thinking of (one we both know), it is not worth the time to respond jwb. He asks these somewhat rhetorical questions as if he is a lover of empiricism, but look at the baselessness of much of what he asserts, such as his false claim to have seen Fred during a drive by of Muara's house, when Fred lives on the cape and - as I later came to learn, was not at the house in Hanson that day. He is a grandstanding ego and puts out lies and misinformation, concerned with how he is perceived, not wit reality. He has also tried to trash good information under several screen names over time and under his now known screen name lied about the origins of his involvement in the case.

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    2. "I later came to learn [Fred] was not at the house in Hanson that day."

      I can't wait to hear you explain this one.

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    3. You brought this on yourself Sam. Not going to engage you. Was just trying to be supportive of JWB. I see that he did not appreciate that, so I move on. People can choose to believe or not believe what you post based on your self-consistency and content on a post by post basis, and they can do the same with me.

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  41. Sorry James to bring stuff here but Sam took stuff over to his site to slam everyone who put in tons of time for the right reason. I think it stinks caue you have put in tons of time though i know it is sprinkled with a bit of advertising aka marketing I think you stay on a fairly steady path.

    Show me different and I will listen.

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  42. So Gee- James said over and over that he would take it down and all evid from posters built a strong case. I don't think James saw the FB page coming- What else was he to do? He did the right thing in waiting for yes or no from the you know who - pretty simple and to the witch hunt poster : Hello don't think so remember the SS# ? I think the hairdresser might be thankful unless there is more to it.

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  43. Seriously, Sam is feeling left out now and grandstanding to assert himself. He says he is in contact with people he is not, he poses as multiple posters, he holds other people's contributions to standards his fail miserably by. Just ignore him and dont go to his page. Any attention he gets worsens his influence,

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    1. Back. Your. Words.

      "[H]e poses as multiple posters." Cite?

      "He says he is in contact with people he is not." Who?



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    2. Just my opinions Sam. Not going to argue with you Was trying to be supportive toward JWB, but I can see that he did not appreciate it and it was not worth the time to post it.

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  44. Hey JG you could really say that about yourself couldn't you? You have made a mockery out of this case.

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    1. I was trying to be supportive of you. You have sold me out a few times now dude, and said a lot of negative in many cases false shit about me, only to turn around and say nice things directly to me and want me to email with you to hear all your ideas. So, I've had enough of you too. If you are going to bitch about Sam, and then turn on me when I agree with you, that says a lot.

      This is why I ignored your recent entreaty for me to email you.

      Here out, you are with Sam on the list of people I just don't interact with.

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    2. Guys,
      Maybe not my place but going to insert my two cents here. I have followed several blogs on this subject and know you both to be intelligent men with solid command of the case and I value both your perspectives. You both have represented solid structure and progress in dissecting this mystery. Don't let this stuff get in the way - it's meaningless.
      FWIW, I read Sam's comment, quoted above, and I did not take it to be an insult, but that he seemed sincerely taken aback by the situation. Not that we are foolish, but that we can rely on things that might actually deceive us. We're human. Now maybe I'm wrong or maybe I'm not - but you guys have always been the ones on these blogs to calmly diffuse tension when people start getting testy. I'd hate to see things deteriorate right here in writing. We all want the same thing.

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  45. I have followed this case for a few years and I wouldn't be suprised if Maura was alive; however, the one thing that confuses me is if she was in fact driving in tandem with another driver, where was that car? We know Butch saw her standing bt her car, where would her companion be? If she was staging an accident, wouldnt that person want to be right behind her as theyd want to scoot out of there asap?

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    1. @hihihi — "In tandem" would not necessarily mean that the two cars were driving one behind the other on the same route. It could mean that the second driver was starting from a different point of origin, and planning to intersect with Maura at some point.

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    2. That is a good point...but then how did she meet up with this person if there was no cell phone signal as claimed on the show? I dont think them finding Billy's phone means anything because I think she might have had another phone... But where does cell signal pick up again?

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    3. Well, old-timers like me (and I'm not THAT old) recall a time when you made arrangements in advance with someone, and simply agreed to meet at a certain place at a certain time, without having to stay in constant contact by phone. But yes, the near absence of any sort of electronic paper trail (that we know of, and aside from the google searches for north country lodgings) is one of those mysteries about this case.

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    4. If she actually planned to stage an accident, I would think she'd do it in a place that wasn't in clear view of 3 houses. I would also think she'd have put the alcohol in the trunk first.

      Here's 2 other car-related questions:
      Do you think that Maura crashed her dad's car so that he couldn't come looking for her? (Perhaps she hadn't thought about him getting a rental).

      As for the rag, do you think she stuffed it in the tailpipe in hopes that the car would not be moved, so she could come back to it before it was towed (and after police had left)?

      I know that to think this way requires someone to be very shortsighted. Maura's credit card fraud using pizza delivery to her location shows shortsightedness too.

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  46. RESPONSE TO HIHI, PART 1

    I find that my inklings about this case come in waves, waxing this way, waning that. When I am in the mindset of staged accident, the same issue has struck me. My best explanation is that there are enough variables around why and how to stage an accident that it is possible the car would not have been right behind them. I continue to believe that it is entirely possible Maura departed the scene by walking up Old Peter's Road. The end of it - based on whether reports we have and the fact that there are residences back there, - most likely (in my judgment) would have been plowed, at worst slushy and not good for leaving tracks in snow. Moreover, in the attitudinal environment that logically seems to have accompanied the immediate investigation by the police at the scene, I don't think they looked very overly carefully for her, but did look around for her. I say this because the officer at the scene had these possibilities to consider: (1) She had left the scene deliberately and voluntarily, (2) she had been abducted, or (3) she had become disoriented and passed out somewhere nearby.

    Rightly or wrongly, some evidence indicates that scenario 2 did not get much attention that night, much to the rightful outrage of the Murrays. But after talking to members of law enforcement, I get it. People running off from minor accidents to skirt DUIs, one told me, is very common. Thus if the SOP called for running around and treating such a case - with no evidence from the scene of an abduction, that night or ever - the budgetary effect would now swim with the citizens in terms of either higher taxes or diminished services elsewhere. So, in defense of the responding officer, he did what the body public would have him do: look around to see if she was nearby in danger (with accumulated snows off the sides of the roadways, this was a bit easier, and he talked to the residents.) He also investigated the possibility of alcohol playing a role, going so far as to inspect the spilt wine. A BOLO went out. Maura, if she had not disappeared, most likely would have faced, at least, charges of leaving the scene of an accident and perhaps something like reckless driving.

    That leaves scenario 1. Had she left the scene deliberately and voluntarily, beyond the BOLO, there is no financially feasible response by the police. She would have gotten a summons and they were on the lookout for her. To launch a missing person or fugitive hunt on the evidence available at the scene is not feasible and - as I said - is the kind of SOP that would get a police chief fired for the either increased taxes or diminished services elsewhere that it would result in.

    (see part 2)

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  47. RESPONSE TO HIHI, PART 2

    In that context, it is quite possible that a staged accident could have played out like this, although this would assume some familiarity by Maura or her co-traveller with the trails in the immediate area. If there were two cars that turned off I-91 into Woodsville, they could have drive out to 112, then made a right on Swiftwater Circle, a short distance before the scene. Swiftwater Circle takes you down to Valley Road, where - right at the top of it, just below Swiftwater Circle - there is a lodge, owned by Mountain Lakes, which owns much of the land in that area (there is an interesting history behind that, which I can tell you if you want to know it.) The lodge has some athletic fields and a tennis court (I think) and a parking lot. It used to be a ski lodge, but in the early 1980s, Mountain Lakes abandoned the ski runs and sold the lift equipment. There was some financial controversy related to this and some people were indicted. The ski trails and lift runs are now just trails. There is a dirt and gravel road that extends from the parking lot up a slope behind the lodge, eventually dead ending near a log cabin house. A debris barrier is place in the road there. You could actually walk past it and it would connect up with a bunch of trails that surround the property of the lodge.

    So suppose Maura and her co-traveler parked there. Book mark that.

    Now, back to Maura and her co-traveler. Lets say that at this point they both get in the Saturn and drive back northward on Swiftwater circle, make a right and continue down 112 for not even half a mile and they stage the accident. (Recall that there exists some ambiguity about whether FW saw a second person at the scene.) (Recall also that when Butch stopped he talked to Maura out the bus door and through a window, which could imply that she was in the passenger seat of the spun around car facing west in the eastbound lane, but Bruce - not then knowing that this would become so significant event - did not really fully take stock of the situation and remember it.)

    Suppose then that after Butch leaves, they walk off up OPR. So, some history on OPR. It used to be a road that connected all the way over to Benton Road. When the ski runs were put in, it was closed off about 3/4 of a mile back, after which it was just a hiking trail. Part of it may have become a portion of a ski run, but I am not sure about that. Today, if you walk back there, the road ceases to be navigable by car not far past the last residence, whose property appears as a triangular clearing on Google maps satellite view. Not too far past that point, you can find police tape surrounding the stanchions of a concrete bridge that once spanned Waterman Brook, deflecting hikers around the rocky surfaces there which are slick with mosses and lichen. Not far past that point, you can make your way over to that trail that goes past that debris barrier on Lodge Lane. The total distance from the scene, via OPR, the trails beyond it and Lodge Lane, is around one mile. If you look at Google Maps and focus to the right height, you can see Lodge Lane, the path of some of the former skiways and that triangular property that is at the end of OPR. Unfortunately - and I imagine, possibly, at the request of residents - OPR is not longer shown on google maps. But it extends from the curve right past the clearing near the curve, then after awhile bends slightly to pass the aforementioned cleared property slightly to the east.

    A variant on this theory - and it is just an idea, not one that I am arguing a preponderance of evidence points to - is the same concept, but parking down on nearby McGuire Road, a dead end. You can find your way from OPR down to the end of McGuire, if you know your way around back there. However, given the homes back on that road, it would imply that Maura or her companion knew someone who lived there.

    (see part 3)

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  48. RESPONSE TO HIHI, PART 3

    For whatever it is worth, the famous A Frame house, where the cadaver dogs "went bonkers" according to some reports, is a quite mysterious and spook place, that has been shuttered for the long term, directly across the street from the Mountain Lakes lodge on Valley Road. I don't point that out to suggest anything, it is just an interesting thing to point out. I visited that house and talked with neighbors who at one point became concerned about it, because it was easy to get into. One of the neighbors called it "an attractive hazard." After a while the owner shuttered it on the first floor and scrawled a message on a utility door on the side, saying "keep out, Keith." (I might have the name wrong, but I think it was Keith). If you really wanted to, you could get in by climbing up to the second store balcony, but I hardly really wanted to. I determined this because when I was mapping and exploring the trails off OPR and the lodge, I was struck by this house. And for whatever reason, the day I first learned about Maura's case (randomly, during a road trip in New England, just driving by on 112 and seeing Fred's sign and ribbon), I explored around and for whatever random reason started wondering if she might have wandered down Swiftwater Circle. So I remembered the house and when I visited the area again, twice, over the next several years - including last summer - I went back, learning the aforementioned history of the house last summer. Shortly thereafter, I found an old article from a magazine on the internet that published a picture of the A frame house.

    ~ John Green

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    1. JG, no one can ever accuse you of not being thorough :)

      I don't know. So many different ideas to play with. When I saw that episode my first thought was that she was dead. But they left out crucial elements that completely changed my mind. I understand they did that because they had Fred's participation.

      Also, what was with the alcohol in the car? Why did she go by liquor and hit the road? To make us think she was drinking and driving? If I knew I was going to stage an accident, I'd be sober to be at my elemwnt and more alert. Or was she just an alcoholic? Maybe she never meant to crash there and thats why the tadem car wasnt seen.

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    2. Wow, thanks for putting that all down. Yes, I am interested in the history of the land and the lodge, if you don't mind. Also, which road was the one RF saw the person run down?

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    3. John;
      Thank you for the precise description of the history. I live on Mountain Lakes. I am wondering about the cadaver dog going bonkers, I don't think I ever read anything explaining that, or maybe I just missed it. The search K9 loosing scent was never a surprise to me but the cadaver dog is a different deal.Any answer you can think of?

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