Sunday, February 16, 2014

Who Took the Other Two Lie Detector Tests?

When Fred Murray sued the state of New Hampshire, it was revealed that police had given four lie detector tests related to Maura's disappearance.

I discovered a few weeks ago that Butch Atwood had taken two.

So who took the other two?

131 comments:

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    1. It would have taken him two years; he avoided a sit down with detectives for that long...

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  2. There was no evidence that Atwood had anything to do with Maura's disappearance. Probably he was asked to take it on the argument that it would help investigators by eliminating him. If they asked Atwood, there really is no reason for them to not have asked Forcier or even the Westmans, or the other residents who lived as near to the scene as Atwood, Forcier and the Westmans (one on OPR behind the Weathered Barn, one next to Forcier's place, one across the BHR from Forcier, and another, possibly seasonal residence tucked away in the woods about 250 feet straight back from the point where the Saturn came to rest.)

    ~ John Green

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    1. I think I recall reading or seeing an interview with Fred saying he believed Maura may have broken into a cabin?

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    2. John, first you state conclusively that "there was no evidence that Atwood had anything to do with Maura's disappearance." Then you say that "probably" he was asked to take a lie detector test so that investigators could eliminate him. I am wondering how you know what evidence the police may or may not have had to want a lie detector test from Atwood? If you mean to say that there is no evidence that has made its way into the public lore, then that is quite a different matter than stating unequivocally that "there was no evidence" regarding a particular suspect or theory.

      Also, I do see quite a difference between asking the last known person who claims to have interacted with the missing person to take a lie detector test and asking "other residents who lived as near to the scene" to do so. While I do not claim any special insight into what evidence police may or may not have had or any special insight into their investigative procedures, logic would dictate placing someone who actually claimed to have interacted with the missing person into a different category than those who merely resided in close proximity to her last known whereabouts.

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    3. Sorry to get you worked up there Jack. I should have said "no evidence I am aware of." I think you are nitpicking, however, regarding my claim that they probably simply asked him to take one. That sentence is offered quite obviously as my opinion and is based on the well known fact that the police, by themselves, cannot force anyone to take a lie detector test.

      As to what I think your implied point is - that police may have had a specific reason to ask Atwood to take a lie detector test - you could be right about that. Given, however, that there were four tests given, I think the scenario I described is more likely. Moreover, now that he is dead, I think there is a good possibility that whatever evidence the police may have had against him - that, as you speculate, may have caused them to ask him to take a lie detector test - would have come to light. It has not, to my knowledge, so that supports my speculated interpretation of events in my mind.

      ~ John Green

      ~ John Green

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    4. While I'm not sure I agree that case evidence would have become public upon a particular POI's death, I do appreciate the clarification. In general though, I think we certainly all appreciate your comments so I certainly hope you don't feel nitpicked-upon.

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  3. A former police state trooper (not Frmlee) posted a while back that someone that did not permit a search of his property was a POI. This could be RF or RS so maybe one or both of these individuals was also given a polly.

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  4. Amy Derby, If you have that post could you post it? Thanks

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    1. "Keith Rayeski:

      First let me say, I was not, nor am I today, purvey to much of the facts or evidence. There was as I recall a "person of interest" who lived in close proximity to where her car was located. We were instructed explicitly not to go on his property and that he had an attorney who had gotten a court order barring us from accessing his property in any way. We were assigned in teams and the "search" was a slow and concise walk along and through designated zones. The "zones" were overlapping and if we located any item, literally "any" item, we were to stop, and each team had a person who would document and collect anything located. I can not speak to the administrative reasons for areas to be searched, or direction or the duration of the search. I can say with complete sincerity that every one involved took the day very seriously. We all knew why we were there and what we were looking for....which was any thing that might give a direction to the investigation and determining what had become of Maura. You asked what my thoughts were at the time and the best I can say in speaking to that is, I'd like to have some to alone with the "person of interest". I still feel that way today. But that's the cop in me and society frowns on such actions, maybe they are right. Some cases are never solved and that is always a bitter pill but the reality of mankind. In my heart, I truly wish I knew what happened but I am confident, Maura did not harm herself and, did not succumb to the elements. I also know God is righteous and one day, there is some one who will answer for what happened to her and I do not believe He shows mercy on such creatures. A final note about the search. The state police did not organize that with whomever was available. My troop assignment was Troop A, on the sea coast. Haverhill is a long drive and it was a long day, though I understand that one long day pales compared to the every long day for her friends and family. I hope this may answer some of your inquires of me, though I suspect you know much more than I do again, my part was minuscule. If you will permit me to ask now, how is Maura's dad? I understand this never goes away from him and my condolences mean little, but I can sympathize with him."

      Via Facebook.

      Tyler

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    2. Would be interesting to know who that person was.

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  5. Take some time and google Todd Ewalt...after reading this case tell me if any of you would trust a lie detector test..(Adam Leroy Lane case )...I wouldn't!!''He even took a lie-detector test. Forty-five minutes later, a detective returned and promptly informed Todd that he had failed it.''

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  6. Billy? Maybe? For some reason I think I recall some mention of him being extensively questioned and ultimately cleared. Maybe he was given one.

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  7. @Tyler from Pittsburgh - you may be aware of LE confidential details to support your suspicion, but absent that knowledge there are a lot of non-sinister reasons why a person would not allow their property to be searched;

    the spontaneity of an opportunist criminal actor residing locally is something to consider, but certainly LE would be monitoring the POI for the last 10 years for an opportunity to engage them further, that does not appear to have happened, so is it likely that this POI has avoided LE's knowledge of any other criminal suspicion and or activity for the last 10 years;

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    1. Hi justthinkingoutloud,

      I copied and pasted that selection. It was posted to Facebook several months ago by Keith Rayeski. His views do not necessarily reflect my own.

      I agree with your point. Declining to have your property searched is not necessarily indicative of guilt of any kind.

      I do, however, believe the individual who I personally think this was referring to would have the means to avoid further investigation. But just having the means to do so, again, does not automatically make someone guilty.

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    2. Whoever the POI is, the LE seems to have evidence of communication of them with another party. A wiretap or email, maybe? It's here on the blog in earlier posts...

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    3. Can you link me to the post you are talking about? That doesn't ring a bell to me.

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    4. Hi Tyler, this may be what Hanns was talking about?
      http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/2012/02/police-provided-secret-testimony-to.html

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    5. Thank you, Allison. I recall that now.

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  8. If Butch Atwood was healthy enough to drive bus loads of kids around after dark on the wintery streets of New Hampshire, he was healthy enough to overpower a petite inebriated Maura Murray at the scene of the accident. I think Butch stuffed that rag up her tail pipe. I think her scent ended at the foot of his driveway for good reason.

    Cops ever take the dogs over to the summer home Butch's brother Barry owned at 300 Swiftwater Road?

    Renner ever talk to an attorney named Dana L. P. Atwood, who represented Barry in routine NH matters and worked out of Providence in 2004, about the lie detector tests Butch took?

    Renner ever wonder why both Butch's house and Barry's house were sold in the 18 months following the disappearance of Maura Murray?

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  9. I am think I am the only one on here who can say they met Butch Atwood and know what kind of person he really is. James has this info. but has decided to focus on the Murray family, suicide or the run away theories; instead of focusing on the people responsible and that is someone living in that area.

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    1. What are you referring to that you know?

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  10. Matthew…what is your impression of him? I know he has since passed but should there be reason to believe he has more information that he is/was saying????

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  11. I just believe BA was part of a network of individuals lived in an isolated area and "off grid" for a reason. I lived in that area for 3 years and believe that there are a lot people capable of harming MM living in the area of her crash. I am not saying so much that BA was a bad person; I believe he knew a lot of bad people. I don't think my info fits with the theory that JR is pushing really hard.

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  12. I would think if the investigation was objective. The last persons to see Maura alive and the first person on the "scene" should have been asked to take a polygraph. Atwood and the officer who arrived at the scene should have been the first ones on the list.
    If they yielded no additional clues... (A polygraph is a tool. I call it a direction finder. It's never admissible in court but it is a tool used to point authorities in a direction.)
    Then I would have opened it up more to include others... Fred Murray... other family members... friends and ex/current boyfriends... dorm roomates. If these authorities stopped after just a few perhaps they did get some direction.
    What boggles my mind is that if they think someone is involved in this case. What harm does a public statement of "We have had a poi in the Murray case however we just don't have enough evidence to charge anyone with wrongdoing."

    In the disappearance of Kortne Stouffer... Im left to wonder the same thing. The last person to see Stouffer died in a car chase trying to elude police. Yet this is not "public knowledge to all" leaving many to keep the search alive for details.

    The problem is... small police forces are used to keeping law and order and writing out tickets. Most have little or no experience in dealing with missing persons cases.

    They can't solve a crime that isn't obvious. So at the very least, why can't they let the public know some of their findings after 10 years?!?! Why continue to make this a big mystery if they -do- have some idea. It only makes them look incompetent. In no way would a statement of that type compromise ANY investigation, either.


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    1. You also assume that LE are not part of the group of people I have discussed above. They are.

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    2. Matthew Lyons--It would help if you could be more specific. Perhaps you could email James Renner privately to give him more details on what you know? Otherwise it isn't really helpful to drop random and unsubstantiated comments. The people on this blog are happy to research your allegations but need something more to go on--in a way that doesn't amount to Libel. You should just tell Renner all you know privately, and THEN wait to see how he handles it/give him time to chase it, AND THEN you can criticize him if it isn't investigated to your satisfaction. Otherwise you aren't being very fair or productive.

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    3. Have done it. It is JR's blog and if chooses not to share what I have shared that's his choice but he has been informed and was interested. JR is way invested in another theory but thanks for the suggestions JLB, but the criticism on how I have handled this are not necessary. I am not looking for blog members to investigate my allegations. If you want to investigate anything, investigate the type of people that live in the town in which she wrecked, who has moved, and why!

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    4. Um ok, I will bite.

      I'm aware of Butch "the BusDriver Didn't Do It" Atwood living there and moving to Florida for his retirement, plans for which were apparently already set in motion long before Maura crossed his path. I also hear he was morbidly obese and not in condition to be a realistic predator and also had 2 other people in his house that night.

      Who else? Well, I have heard so far just seemingly baseless allegations arising from the direction of the Murray camp on the FB page that an unknown State Trooper responded to the scene and was unaccounted for for 2 hours, but have never found corroborating evidence of that and I don't even know his alleged name.

      If you lived in that town, you are better situated to tell us "what type of people" you are referring to who live there. All I have seen is a bunch of relatively "normal" people just like in every other small town in America.

      What am I missing? What else do you have?

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    5. JLB, I would suggest you take a visit to that area of the country and spend some time there. I think you will find that SOME (not all) of the people are not as you described, are very tightly knit and don't appreciate outsiders in the least. If we could get pics of the two people that were at BAs house that night, perhaps I could tell you more about them if they are people that know were capable of doing some really bad things. Yes I am being general and I am for a reason. My real name appears on this blog and I have no idea who reads it. Again, JR has the info I passed on, its his blog, his book, and his narrative to create at this point. I will tell you although very big, BA was more capable than people are stating and don't think he would be involved in this alone. I am not blaming him, I am not accusing him of anything, I am just saying that the people that I knew and became very acquainted with; were not the type of people who you would want around your wife, daughter or sister. They were off griders.

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    6. JLB, I don't think he's suggesting the Statie. I think he's talking about the local cop who was on scene first before NHSP. The cop may not be the one to actually harm MM but some he and/or Butch knew was.

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    7. Ok--Thanks Ryan--That would be Mr. Cecil Smith of Haverhill PD per Todd Landry's confirmation to Renner on an earlier Renner post?

      I haven't been able to find much dirt on him. To the contrary I found that he arrested his own Chief for a DUI, right? Arresting his own superior for corruption doesn't really seem like a red flag--seemed actually honorable. But now that you remind me, I do recall reading some grumblings about the former chief arrested by Cecil Smith while reading some prior archived MM forums.

      The formed chief lived near Bradley Hill Road, right? Is that who we are talking about? What's new with him?

      Does anyone have any updates?

      http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/2011/10/official-response.html

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    8. The former chief is very interesting. He lived a mile away from the wreck. And, as somebody hypothesized, if BA did see somebody pick up Maura that he didn't want to point a finger at, Chief would fit the bill.

      http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/2011/09/haverhill-police-chief-who-worked-on.html

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  13. If Butch Atwood was so concerned with "living off the grid" in the middle of nowhere New Hampshire, why would he have relocated to Florida upon his retirement?

    And I am sorry but I see no benefit from your suggestion that I go up there to stare at the locals to typecast them. I'm more interested in the facts. Names, dates and locations.

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    1. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    2. Sorry I had to copy and paste the comment and it showed up as all gibberish. Let me try again. I was trying to say: Also, if he were "living off grid" why have a job as a bus driver? Your around tons of kids/parents/teachers on a daily basis, not a very good job for staying under the radar!

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  14. great but these theories and suggestions fully discount the obvious - she was already on the run for some reason of which we can only speculate; she had some opportunity to form a plan; she utilized outright deception as part of the plan, following the logic of that deception she would have planed to abandon her car at some point;

    the rt112 crash - accidental or intentional may have allowed her to maintain her plan;

    an example of a simple explanation that does not add any players to the party could be that she was already traveling with her father in another vehicle, he picks her up after the crash and takes her to their preplanned destination - a bus station; she boards a greyhound bus and is never heard from again much to the father's dismay;

    epilogue: young smart attractive educated woman easily assimilates into a new community and has no reason to acknowledge a troubled past

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    1. Renner has not divulged any facts that she was planning to run away and start a new life. He's provided theories about WHY she would want to but has not shown how she was planning on pulling it off. It's not something you just do on a whim. If anything it looks like she was just trying to get away for a few days. That will be my opinion until there is evidence that shows she was preparing to disappear herself.

      And if her father was involved why would he sue NH to get more info about the case released? Would you want more info on the case released if you were involved in any way? I wouldn't

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    2. yes she was on the run - packed dorm room personal belongings, making travel plans, printing road maps; leaving an old email message printed out for bf, withdrawing available bank balance; missing important college course work and lying about absence; driving 140 plus miles in the night; leaving no information for friends or family of your plans and or intended whereabouts;

      oh he was involved - the question is to what extent, there are various possibilities; why sue for information, one could assume the obvious - he is trying to find her

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    3. Or he just needs to know what they know. He needs to know how much information they have.

      Also, people DO disappear to start a new life on a "whim." I feel that something that is really weighing down the conversation on this blog is the fact that everyone is convinced that starting a new life requires some huge amount of planning. If you look at actual cases of people who took off to start a new life, you will find that none of them planned it out very well. In fact, there cases all look very similar to Maura's. The weight of all their problems had been weighing on them for quite some time, but it was only over the course of a day or two that they said, "screw it, I'm outta here." They took a little money and not much else, and left. In fact I think that there almost has to be a certain amount of impulsiveness to take off and start a new life.

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    4. I'm not saying she needs to be like James Bond and have things stashed in different countries but there would be some plans.There's not much you can get done with 280 bucks minus the cost of the alcohol. What's her plan after that??

      Rose- Could you post some examples of other peoples impulsiveness to run away? I'm not saying your'e wrong, I'm just interested.
      And Why would he want that info released. People like Renner would get ahold of it and it would only strengthen their suspicion of him. Doesn't make sense.

      And justthinkingoutloud - she looked up directions to places in VT. She called condo owners in VT & NH to look for a place to stay. Emailed her profs saying she would be gone for the week. That's why I say the evidence points to trying to get away for a few days. Not disappearing forever.And you kinda contradict yourself. He's responsible for her disappearance but wants to find her too?

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    5. there is also the question of the $4k ATM cash; she was a junior in a challenging professional degree program - missing course work for an impromptu week long getaway is unrealistic; her father was certainly helping her but did she deceive or exclude him in some way that also leaves him asking questions about her actions and whereabouts

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    6. Okay so you're saying it wasn't on a whim then. Then that means it was planned out so facts should be out there then about her preparations. And someone else (other then Fred) helped her. Who?

      And I wouldn't say missing classes for a week is unrealistic. Certainly not good and could def. screw you if you miss something critical, but if you've been to college you know some people will skip out on a week of classes and still be okay. Not smart. Certainly not unrealistic though.

      And why would her father help his daughter disappear? JR has posted theories on here about MM wanting to run away BECAUSE of Fred but what's your theory of why Fred would help Maura? Any facts?

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    7. Actually in Ga I was in a nursing program at a community college. You a have to signa. Waiver stating that due to the highs means of the program if you miss more than 3 days in a semester you will be dropped unless it's an extreme emergency/death. Based on the fact MM used the death excuse I would imagine she signed the same/similar type of waiver I did. When your in an in demand program the rules and expectations are a lot higher as are your grade requirements and clinical rotations in order to graduate.

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    8. Hmm very interesting. You make a good point. It'd be cool if someone could do some research into the UMass policy.

      Another things I thought of too was why would you email your professors an excuse for your absence from class/work that week if you were planning on disappearing forever? Maybe you would, maybe MM did, but I don't know, I probably wouldn't really care about an unexcused absence if I was going off to start a new life.....

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    9. Maybe she didn't want anyone to come looking for her? Maybe she wasn't sure she wanted to follow through with it and wanted to have an excused absence in case she decided to return? It seems as of she new the only way to be excused from class is if she had a death in the immediate family. Maybe she thought that emailing her professors would give her more time to get away before anyone started looking for her, this is what makes me think she deliberately ran away. It seems as if she intended to run away but got into a wreck instead. People keep saying she couldn't have ran away with what little bit of money she had. But, she could have been saving money someplace outside of a bank account, she could have gotten the 4grand from FM and took it with her (not sure he really had the 4grand since he was about to lose his house it doesn't seem to me that he would be losing his home and have a large savings), or she could have been meeting up with someone else that had the money to pay for everything as long as she had the gas to get to them.

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  15. I have read many times that Mr. Atwood is/was too "obese" and suffers from "medical conditions" to commit a crime. That is the most RIDICULOUS thing I have heard. Also just b/c his wife and his MIL (I think) was in the house during the time MM disappeared that means NOTHING. Look at the Elizabeth Smart case….it was a husband and wife that did the most horrible things to that poor girl. So to say he couldn't have done it b/c other people where in the house is also RIDICULOUS. I am not saying that Mr. Atwood has done/did ANYTHING wrong however it is just stupid to rule him out b/c of his size and the fact that there were people at his house.

    I think it is only natural and smart to look at the people ( VERY closely) that live around where the accident took place. I know one of the neighbors called 911 and watched from the window for a while but I don't understand why they would just stop watching before the police came. I don't know many people who would just go about their night and not continue to watch until police arrived…..or did she??? Has these neighbors been questioned/interviewed? If so are the "interviews" public?

    Playing devils advicate do we blame people for moving away from the spot that MM disappeared ? They must have known that their lives will forever be turned upside down b/c of their "involvement" in the case. There homes as well as their actions will always be under the public eye and people will forever be skeptical (as I am myself). I am not sure I would want to stay in that area and have to endure that kind of life. Is it fair to point the finger at them just b/c they moved? This case is SO very interesting with SO many details and angels.

    I would LOVE to think that Maura is living a secret life but I just don't think that is the case. Sadly, I think she was murdered by whom is the question. I would also like to think that her family didn't play a part in her disappearance but again we don't know that for sure. I don't ever want to or even think of how the people close to this case feels however I would like to think that I would do ANYTHING (I mean ANYTHING) to prove my innocence and help in the investigation for my missing loved one.

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    1. I am not suggesting that BA moved due to involvement in the MM case. What I am saying is that my experiences from living in that area and knowing some of the people that lived in that area and why make me believe that it is not a run away or a suicide case. I am sorry JLB, I am not choosing to share all the info I have in this public forum. I have shared with JR and he can decide if he is credible or worthy of this blog. Some of it involves issues that I am not trying to broadcast and BTW, I really don't care what you do and don't want me to place on this blog. I do believe that the locals, if not, need to be the focus. I also believe and have reason to believe that the local police may have knowledge that the aren't willing to share. I know the area. That's all I am going to say,

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    2. +1 Chloe Smith. Predators do not give up just because they are morbidly obese. A drunken, confused, and scared MM might have been essentially served up on a silver platter. "You can hide out in my bus as long as you need, I live just a couple houses up." "Thanks Mr. Atwood, let me just grab a couple things and I will be right over." You could add Forcier into a similar situation if he picked her up whilst she was running down the street.
      The entire cast of characters in this case needs the location data pulled on all of their cell phones and a routine/timeline investigation completed.

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    3. That review should start with the mysterious Mr. Fred Murray and his whereabouts, land line phone records and personal expenses during that time frame.

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    4. Idk about any of the other readers here BUT, most people don't expect a person to have a car accident and disappear, meaning most people aren't going to watch out he window like a creeper. Also, I never stated BA was too obese to commit a crime. I said that he was too obese and in too bad of shape to have completed it in the 7 minutes it took LE to arrive. I believe that's what others were getting at. Especially since he was questioned within minutes of LE arriving and he had no signs of labored breathing or sweating- things that LE and Emergency personnel are trained to look for in the event of a crime. The fact that he was questioned so quickly afterwards and didn't have any signs of this leads me to believe he was not involved- also, with MM being so in shape im sure she would have still been fighting him off had he attempted anything. I also remember reading that the family in the home saw ba drive up stop and immediately pulls way. They said they didn't believe he was stopped long enough to harm MM and once they seen him drive away they continued cooking dinner- I believe it was cooking, could have beenw a thing television.

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    5. You don't expect people to disappear after an accident but I would want to make sure everybody was alright. I don't think that's creepy to look out the window to make sure everything was alright. Especially if it's right in front of my house. Or they could have even gone out to see if anyone was injured. Imagine that. Not saying they needed to or are liable because they didn't but I think a lot of other people would have gone out. Especially in these small towns, usually everybody knows everybody you'd want to check it out. It's not like some city where minor car accidents don't even get a second look.

      And Butch may not have been the one to harm her. Hence the no signs of excursion like you said he didn't have. He could still certainly be involved or know who was. Not saying he was but doesn't rule him out from having knowledge either.

      It's just kind of strange that, what, 2-3 houses were in view of the crash and people looked out at one point or another but no one was looking when she vanished. Yes, most likely they looked out after hearing the crash but then just everyone doesn't see anything after that, no one looks out again until LE is there. That's a little odd. Whether she took off on her own, someone picked her up, or someone harmed her, s/he/they got pretty lucky no one was watching or saw/heard anything.

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    6. Also, who is to say they woudlnt have kept watching or gone out to help if it was obvious something was wrong based on BA's appearance on the scene. The fact that he stopped and kept rolling probably indicated to the neighbors that nothing was wrong so they went about their lives. It was winter. Not many people would run out into the night to assist in a situation that by all the appearances based on the last person that stopped to help (Butch Atwood) wasn't serious. I wouldnt read into the neighbors not helping or assume it meant they were involved.

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    7. I'm not saying they were involved I'm just saying maybe they should have gone out. Or I'm saying I would have and a lot of other people would have too I think.

      Something could still be still serious even though Butch left the scene. Maybe it was real serious so he was rushing home to call 911. Apparently it was dark so they didn't see much so they prob. couldn't tell too much about the seriousness.

      The point is there were a lot of potential witnesses so you have to take that into account of what happened (unlikely the accident was staged) and whatever happened she or they were lucky no one saw. Like if she got picked up from another car.

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    8. Actually I think one of the homes was empty at the time ( or person wasn't home) and the neighbors did say they looked out several times and it appeared as if someone else was in the car. They lived a little ways up the driveway from MM accident it wasn't like a quick dash out the door. They did say they seen BA pass by within a moment and did not see any other cars/headlights pass by until LE and FR.

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  16. the idea of life imitating art is not a new one but it requires significantly more imagination to conceive than simpler much less sinister explanations which more closely and less flamboyantly fit the know elements - she was running away - she succeed

    Psycho (1960) in the film a secretary on the run, ends up meeting her demise at a secluded motel after embezzling money from her employer

    Deliverance (1972) in the film four businessmen on a weekend camping trip find themselves in a backwoods nightmare, terrorized by psychotic local mountain men - victims of a sexual assault at gunpoint and a murder

    Pulp Fiction (1994) in the film after an automobile collision and a foot chase the two men land in a pawnshop where the shop owner captures them at gunpoint, ties them up in a basement area and sexually assaults them

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    1. Miss Joyce - You so cray cray, you must be related to Miss. Cleo!

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    2. Maybe we can use this to find MM.

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  18. I think there is ultimately only one question to answer: If Maura had never crashed her car that night, would she still be missing? If your answer is yes, then she did intend on disappearing, If your answer is no, then she met with foul play.

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  19. For what it is worth, I have it directly from a relatively prominent local government official that in 2008, when the red vacation house on OPR (about 250 feet from the accident scene) was subjected to a collected liens for unpaid property taxes - thus becoming a publicly owned piece of land for which a search warrant was not required - both the local police and the CCU immediately searched it. I say this, referring back to Jack's comment against my comment near the top of this thread: we really don't know what the authorities know or what evidence they have.

    ~ John Green

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    1. Incidentally, I don't know the ins and outs of the law surrounding collector's liens in NH. It occurs to me that someone could argue that, technically, a warrant was still required, because until a statutory period has elapsed after issuance of the lien, the owner still has right of possession and can live in and use the property, while they try to pay off the debt. But I do know that whatever technical legal basis was constituted by issuance of the lien, the authorities entered and searched the house in connection with Maura's case. Given that the husband of couple who owned the home was dead by that point, the wife was institutionalized in a geriatric care home and had had a guardian appointed, and the house clearly had been abandoned, as a practical matter, even a thin legal justification for searching the property probably would have sufficed.

      The house, by the way, was slated to be possessed by the county and go to Sheriff's sale in January of this year. I have not followed up to find out if that happened.

      ~ John Green

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    2. John,

      You previously talked about finding a spot near the red house that looked like it was possibly a shallow grave but a man came around or something like that and you didn't finish checking it out.

      Have you or are you planning on revisiting that spot?

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  20. Why would BA call 911 if he did something to her? That defies logic IMO.

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    1. If BA knew he'd been seen talking to Maura and she was hiding out (or was restrained) in his school-bus, calling 911 would be smartest thing he could do. Otherwise, once the police talked to the Westmans and heard that Maura had been seen with BA, they go to BA's house asking a bunch of questions and looking around. If BA preemptively calls 911 on the other hand, the police approach him for information but since he's already self-reported, he becomes part of the "search" just like the rest of them.

      It should not be forgotten that 1) a neighbor said he parked differently that usual and 2) BA drove to a lake later that night to "search for Maura" - on his own. (I apologize if my details on those two counts are not 100% accurate but I think I have the gist right on both accounts).

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    2. He was driving the most identifiable vehicle possible. It might as well have been a neon bulls eye. Maybe he said he would have to call in the wreck, but she could hide out and he wouldn't tell on her, who knows. He is probably just a nice old man (or used to be), but why not kick the can a bit. What I have seen about predators is that they are relentlessly methodical and position themselves as sincere and good citizens. They are like spiders that spin a web and eventually they catch someone. Once, I talked to someone that I later learned was a child predator and it made me realize how good they are a creating a facade as they go. Never count someone out due to girth and apparent good citizenship. The real monsters are usually living amongst us.

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    3. Intuitive. I agree. It's what I keep saying. You never know someone until you live with them and even then, you can be grossly deceived for a while. I do not however think BA was involved. Just a hunch. I think the power of suggestion is strong in a lot of individuals and that if it had been suggested to a neighbor by police or they had been agressively questioned for info on BA, then a lot of people might have begun to manufacture memories and details. It's a preconception bias that can sometimes handicap even the most experienced investigator. We come to an obvious conclusion then look for the facts to support that conclusion. We almost always find some. As emotional creatures, our complete objectivity is impossible. I think that this case is not alone in being injured by that fact and that BA was more than liekly a casualty of the public's opinion due to this idiosincracy of humans.

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    4. I don't think BA did it, having met him. I think he knew who did it or had a very good idea.

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    5. IF He was in His bus doing paperwork He could have seen something. I am not saying He did, but it is possible.

      RIP Butch AEA

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    6. Mr. Wolfman Smith: I hate to ask but I suck with all these abbreviations. What is AEA? I usually ask my son or my niece to decipher these but it's well past their bed time. Thanks!

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  21. she packed and left school that day without telling anyone of her intended journey, concealing the truth of her absence no one would report her missing;

    I find it shallow to just assume that she encountered a stranger alone that dark February night on rt112 in NH and therefore likely met her demise as a result;

    Is there not a real possibility that humanity exists along rt112 in NH; why is there such concern that meeting an off-the-grid person under such circumstances can only mean bad things will happen;

    "Live Free or Die" is the official motto of NH, if she was looking to make a clean start in life what better place to begin the journey; just maybe she was befriended by an off-the-grid person there, a complete stranger who could really understand her need and desire for freedom, someone honest and helpful, someone willing to keep her secret knowing the real value of such things;

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  22. When a magician directs your attention to the right hand side of the stage, it is because the trickery is happening on the left. What we know is that Maura lied about a family emergency. This tells me she had a plan to leave. Everything after that seems to be what she wanted us to see. She knew her activity prior to her disappearance would be scrutinized, so why make phone calls to places you were really intending to travel to? Also, she obviously knew, as does anyone on the planet, that your credit card activity is traceable. So purchasing things needed for a new identity with your own resources is not a good idea. But stealing other peoples cards and making the purchases on those would never go noticed. And we already know that Maura stole credit card info. We know of the times she got caught...not the times she didn't. I think everything that was left behind tells us nothing and that all the clues tell us is that it was Mrs. Peacock, Colonel Mustard, and Ms. Scarlett and whomever else in the library, in the kithen, in the study, in the hall, with the revolver, the candlestick, the rope, and the knife. What I am saying is that everything points in too many directions to point us anywhere. Consequently, the only thing that makes sense to me is that confusing people was the intention. If NH and VT and all those places spends time looking for a body in the field that belonged to an unprepared and inebriated young woman, they are missing the alive person on the west coast somewhere. Also, I have speculated before that FM was abusive, and I still consider that a possibility. However, another possibiilty is that he was involved and all his protesting and suing is a calculated an overt attempt to act like he has no clue. If I was caught with my hand in the cookie jar trying to steal a peanut butter cookie, I would insist to everyone I was allergic to peanuts. I have said it before and I will say it again...it is what helps me get through my life....we need to remember that we all only see what people want us to see! That's just my two cents today :)

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    1. Time* she got caught. Not times. I believe it was for only one purchase. Not defending her but just saying I believe she only got caught for that onc purchase of pizza.

      What's your theory on why Fred would help her disappear?

      And why would you even bother to email your professors? She doesn't tell her friends anything but tells her profs. she wont be around for the week. Why?

      And what happened after she crashed her car?

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    2. I would have to think the reason for e-mailing the Professors would be a smart move if she was leaving Dodge, for the simple fact they won't be looking for her. If she just up and left and missed classes the school would be notifying her emergency contacts and that would blow her head start.
      I agree with Chefgirl about the smoke and mirrors..have everybody look to the North while im heading South.
      Another good point she makes is the credit card fraud..she did get caught once,but she may have done it several times before..Once a thief,always a thief so to speak.
      Now if she was leaving for good, I would think she would have been smart enough to get a new ID with another name on it,possibly.
      Now,watching Fred on TV, I truly believe he has no clue where his daughter is and wants to find her one way or another,you can see the pain in this mans face.Weather he was duped by Maura,who knows,only he has that answer.

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    3. If anything her friends would contact her parents or authorities. Not her teachers. And she didn't tell her friends anything. Why wouldn't she say she was going home or something for an emergency to her friends then?

      There have been many cases out there where the college/university do not immediately contact the authorities when a person a student doesn't show up because they think a person is just skipping out on classes. I don't think they would get the police or family involved for an unexcused absence.

      IMO opinion emailing your teachers does not really give you a head start when your friends will the ones who are really concerned.

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    4. That was my thought as well @Steve Knight, that sending an email would buy her time. Maybe she didnt tell her friends because she didnt feel as close to them as they felt to her. After people disappear, no one speaks ill of them for the most part or says "we weren't that close anymore." Every body wants to be the best friend when tragedy strikes. It is in most people's nature. Besides, people with strong attachments to other individuals just dont up and leave. And it appears to me Maura up and left. As far as FM's motive for helping her, I dont have an answer. I just dont believe it's out of the realm of possibility. It seems clear that she walked for a short while which is why the dogs could find her scent at least 100 yards away by BA's house, and after that the only plausible solution to how she vanished is that it was by car. I do believe she had a plan and I do believe she probably had fake documents. For no other reason than she would need them to disappear effectively. I should add that I remember hearing about this case when it first happened, but until recently I didnt start reading this blog or following this case at all. So I really dont pretend to be as knowledgeable on the details of the case as many of the commenters here. I just know people. I rememeber when I first heard the story I thought she took off of her own volition. Just had a hunch. And so far all these years later and reading what I have on the case, I still believe that. As far as Fred Murray is concerned, the one image I have of him in my head that has always been unsettling is the one Mr. Renner has on the left hand side of the home page of his blog, the one where his eyes are closed. His expression isn't worried. For more information on why I believe that, check out what Dr. Eckman, the world's foremost expert on facial body language says about worry and concern on someone's face. Anyways, I dont know how all of the pieces fit together but I am certain that's because that is how Maura wanted it.

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    5. Now your cook'n Chefsgirl..My thing about Fred is why would he be in the publics eye,on TV,ect If he really did know what happened or has an idea.
      I truley believe he has no idea.I think his facial expressions are out of fustration.I also think he's caring a heavy load of guilt,the woulda,shoulda,coulda kind.

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    6. chefsgirl - so you're saying Maura didn't have any friends at school then. At least, in her opinion, she didn't have any close friends? Friends she would at least throw some BS excuse to so they don't worry because she thought no one would wonder where she was or call authorities. Even if they weren't really, really close I feel like a decent friend would worry a lot more about a sudden disappearance than a teacher would for an unexcused absence. I'm sure her boyfriend would become concerned if he didn't hear from her for a day or two.

      Even if you're right and none of the people she knew at school would have called authorities or her parents, I still highly doubt her teachers would have called her parents for an unexcused absence. It's not like high school. And I certainly don't think they would call the police. Police wouldn't waste their time investigating kids who skipped class on the off chance they have vanished forever. It just doesn't make sense to me. Emailing your professors doesn't buy any head start. At least in my opinion.

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    7. Yes that's what I am saying. The other possibility is that she did tell at least one friend something and over all these years they kept it a secret despite the national pomp and circumstance surrounding her disappearance. That's impressive. So naturally I just suspect she didnt tell anyone. Why wouldnt she tell anyone? Because no one was as close to her as they may assert after she is gone. Plus, in my opinion the nuances of this story point to her running away. People with close friends dont run away. She emailed the only people she knew would be accounting for her and that's her professors.

      And as far as FM goes @Steve Knight....it appears that you have seen more extensive footage of his behavior so I will accept the possibility that there is a vast deal of worry in his countenance as you believe. I can only speak for what I have seen with my eyes and what I have seen is not worry. If nothing else, look up Dr. Eckman's research because it's fascinating :)

      I love a good mystery and puzzle and to me that's what this is. I have no investment in the outcome other than I too would like to see it resolved because I am someone who likes answers. I am just throwing that out there because I hate the thought of upsetting a random stranger on a blog with an innocous comment meant simply to posture on possibilities. So I am not interested in debate, I just appreciate all the different perspectives as another opportunity to solve this puzzle and I hope my opinions are understood and appreciated in like manner!

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    8. If im planning a getaway,im telling nobody,not friends,family,my dog..nobody.If you tell anybody your leaving for a day or two and you know your outta there for good,your leaving as a lier when they figure out you took off for good.So she crosses off the I lied to my friends guilt off her list.Also the I'll never be able to face them again if I ever come back cuz I lied to them.
      The head for the hill's and never look back approuch.

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    9. Very well put Chefsgirl.... Im not a debater either!!

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    10. Steve- She lied to her professors. Yes, she doesn't have to worry about facing her friends because she didn't lie to them. But in the end she's still considered a liar for lying to her professors.

      Chefsgirl- I didn't know her personally but from what I've hear and would assume she was pretty close to her boyfriend. And if her father wasn't involved and was expecting her to call, then that's someone who would be looking for her. At the very least her boyfriend would be concerned if days went by and couldn't get a hold of her.

      That's the point I'm trying to make:

      -If her BF doesn't hear from her for 3,4,5 days I would imagine he would get concerned and at least call the family or one of her friends.

      -If she DOESN'T email her professors it would probably be a couple weeks before they would try to contact anyone.

      Two assumptions I know but not unlikely. So that's why I'm saying it doesn't matter she emailed her professors when her father and/or her BF would be looking for her a lot sooner.

      So I respectfully disagree that her professors were the only one's who would be accounting for her. Her boyfriend is at least one. I am in the same boat you are. I don't know every minute detail but it seemed liked she had 1 or two good friends at school. Maybe not but at least her BF, unless you know that weren't as close as has been reported.(?)

      And I'm not trying to argue or debate with you. You have your opinion and I have mine. I'm sure some agree with you and maybe no one does with me. That's cool. But I just want to present alternate theories. As you said. But I personally like when someone disagrees with me. It makes me look at other options that otherwise I may not have thought of. Because sometimes the truth lies somewhere in the middle no matter the topic. So in reality we're probably both wrong. lol

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    11. The thing about right and wrong Ryan is that they both have a 50% chance of being victorious :) When it comes to this, the only people I care about being right are the ones who believe she is alive and the ones I wish to see wrong are those that believe she is dead. Whatever trails were used on arriving at either theory be they compatible with my own thoughts or not; and that's because as a mom, I want to believe that she is alive and as an eternal optimist I want to believe that her future is a bright one regardless of her past.

      I am intersted in what you have to say about Fred Murray. He is one piece I cant make fit into my theory of her running away. I dont know enough. I do know he appears disingenuous which sends up red flags for me. If he was the motive for her running, he would not know where she is and he would be worried, which as you may recall, I have not seen. I am going to go back and watch more Fred Murray stuff though as I may be missing something. On teh other hand, if he helped her that would explain the lack of concern, but it wouldnt furnish a motive for her running. Thoughts? I appreciate your perspective:)

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    12. OK,Ryan,Chefsgirl and myself..can we agree that from her college dorm to Rt. 112 where the car hit the snow bank she was infact running away??
      That will be a yes from me..or an ''I'' which ever you'd like

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    13. I'm like you I have not read everything on the case.I know a good amount but that being said I haven't made up my mind on Fred. You kinda hit it on the head though as the two theories (He helped her vs. he drove her to run away) kinda contradict the way he's acted after.

      If he really isn't concerned then he had a hand in her disappearance. But as you said I have not seen any theory on why he would help her run away. Or why did she want to run away then? Certainly that doesn't mean a reason isn't out there or it didn't happen.

      If he really doesn't know where she is then he should be more concerned. I'm not a body language expert so I don't know what is going on his head. Seems like you know more about body language and if you're getting a bad vibe from him, I wonder what he's hiding.

      My opinion though, he's not involved in her disappearance. If she was running away a plausible reason many have suggested is because of Fred. If that's true I think that's the extent of his involvement. I really have nothing to back that up. Pure opinion. But I think he seems pretty invested in finding out what happened to her. Suing the state to release info and he used to go up to Haverhill every weekend to search for clues. People could say he's doing this so it appears like he's concerned. Could be true.

      I really don't know it's a tough one.

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    14. Steve - I have mulled over her intentions a good amount and I'm not convinced she was running away for good. I've been leaning on the theory that she was planning on just getting away for a few days. Certainly quite a coincidence she then disappeared forever after that though, I get that.

      So I don't know. I'm certainly not a hard yes in either direction but I lean on the theory she didn't want to run away. Can certainly see thinking she was running away though.

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    15. Ryan & Chefsgirl..This is my read on Fred for what its worth.
      I grew up in the same town as Fred did,Weymouth Ma.The area is mostly Blue collar,back in the day a lot of Ship yard workers,Irish Cathlic's that enjoy a beer or 2 every know and then.
      Everyone had each others back and for the most part good people.Most family's had there issues and most families were pay check to pay check.
      Fred is a tipical Weymouth kid,a little rough around the edges till you get to know him.On camera he appears shakey but who wouldn't.
      I also think he's getting a bad rap for not answering questions on this blog to people he don't even know.Why should he? I wouldn't.
      No body likes there or there families dirty laundry aired out in the public's eye,and for no reason whether its true or false.Again I wouldn't.
      So in short,I think Fred's a father that is missing his daughter and wants her home,and I pray it happens for him.

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    16. Well put Steve. I agree. I think people are very quick to bash Fred because he's an easy target. I think people should try really, really hard to put themselves in the same situation he is in. Then his actions wouldn't seem so unusual. As you said, if I were him I wouldn't talk to Renner. So I have no issue and it raises no red flags for me that he doesn't want to participate with the book/this blog

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    17. You both bring up good points. i did look at his stills last and zoomed in on the area of his forehead between his eyebrows in the picture I was referring to and though it isnt evident in the smaller picture on this blog, there is evidence of distress on his face. It is always tougher when someones eyes arent open to understand their expressions perfectly but I am comfortable that the photo that led me to the conclusion that he wasnt worried (he actually appears to have a serene expression when you dont zoom in on the photo) actually is showing some concern on his face. The only way to know for sure what he was concerned about is to know what the person speaking was saying at taht moment, and without live footage of that it is hard to say. Either way, I will concede that he appears to be concerend and I was wrong on that front.

      As far as her intentions leaving, I do believe she was running away. I believe she was meeting someone and tahts why she woudl have taken off in the direction she was to meet that person. I am not as convinced though taht it was for a short stay and this is why. Imagine you had a vacation planned and you were heading out the door for the airport when a strong wind came and blew a tree into your house. Do you say, "oh well, I will deal with taht when I get back, vacation is more important." Or is that a game changer? If the object of her trip was a week away, damaging her fathers car, would certainly changer her plans because it is not something she could run away from. At best, she would delay the consequences and thereby make it worse of a mess for her to come back to. But if you are running away for good, you woudlnt let anything stand in your way. Extemporaneous circumstances would cause you to adjust your plans, not cancel them. Further, she told BA that she had already called AAA (a lie) and told him not to call police. Both of these coudl support the suicide theory, but I am certain her body would have been found by now. I think it is possible that the voicemail she left for her boyfriend (which has since been erased...head scratcher:/) was her crying and saying goodbye. It is not uncommon for runaways to make phone calls back home occassionally, especially on important dates and just not say anything. If she had a weak moment where her resolve faltered or guilt got ther better of her, she may have called to say goodbye to her boyfriend. He may have even said it explicitly which is why he erased the message, to protect her. My ex brother in law was a fugitive from the law and went down to Mexico to hide and was caught because of phone calls he made as it was hard to sever ties completely at first. Of course, I still believe that Maura has an indifference to how everyone feels to stay gone this long if indeed she did run away. But it's not uncommon for people who feel like the black sheep of teh family to never feel they belong and thus they dont feel as profound of a loss when confronted with familial estrangement. Again though, just a theory.

      Also, Steve I appreciate the background on FM's upbringing. It does explain a lot. I am going to research more. I cant shake the feeling he is involved, but to what extent I dont know. One thing to think about, it is not uncommon for criminals to follow the investigation and coverage of their crimes. They want to know what the police know. On the other hand, if FM is manipulative, he is not smart, because if he were he would befirend James...keep your friends close and your enemies closer!

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    18. also, I am not dyslexic, I just type too fast and transpose letters! Sorry everyone!

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    19. Great point chefsgirl..although im not dyslexic on my end,I just stink at spelling & writing!! ;)

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    20. In lieu of a 'like' or a 'favorite' button, I'll just say, fab comment. :)

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    21. One comment now I've read more than just the first one. I don't think it's *just* that FM isn't talking to Renner. He apparently isn't talking to anyone. If I remember correctly it took him two years to even talk to the police.

      I think it's his reticence that has made people look askance... not that people looking askance has made him reticent.

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    23. Chefsgirl - You kinda summed up the case. It pretty much comes down to two theories.

      1: She was planning on running away and that's why she didn't care about her car so she left it there.

      2: She wasn't running away and someone took her/harmed her at or around the scene of the accident.

      I guess a third possibility would be that she was running away and someone took her at the scene of the accident. That'd be pretty bad for her. Trying to run away from a problem or in search of a better life and then gets abducted.

      So to say she wasn't planning a short getaway because the car was abandoned doesn't connect. She could have been planning a short getaway and then gets abducted after the accident. That's why it would be abandoned.

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    24. Good point but the car was locked. The three reasons it coudl have been lockaed as far as I see are:

      1) she walked away from it never intending to return but out of habit , locked it.

      2) she walked away from it and locked it intentionally, hoping to return.

      3) Someone abducted her at the site and they locked the car for her.

      In my opinion, number 1 is the most likely. That is because I believe she was walking toward something. She had a plan and it was not going to be interrupted by some accident. Or, the accident was part of the plan. Either way, you dont take off on back country roads in wooded unpopulated territory at night in the middle of winter unless you have a destination when there is no immediate danger where you are at. She would have been safer at the crash site for those who argue she went to get help. Additionally, I believe she probably was supposed to wait for somebody there or near there, and BA was not part of the plan. He shows up, she says dont call for help, but she coudl probably tell he was going to anyway, so she took off on foot to meet at her destination. If the accident was part of her plan, then I would assume that walking away was too and she was probably prepared for the walk, knowing which roads and paths would conceal her best. The only things that are obvious to me are Maura was running away, and she was either so determined not even an accident could stop her, or teh accident was part of teh plane. But either way, it seems obvious she was prepared. I think there is a good possibilty she left the way she did because if she ever was discovered, there was a good possibility she could claim distress or confusion due to the accident. Seems to me like she thought of pretty much everything!

      Question, did they ever find her keys? Were they in the car?

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    25. Man your good Chefgirl!! I've been ''stewing'' on the tandem thing,you know someone following her to ditch the car,picking her up and drive off into the sun set.Im not biting..Reason...She told BA that she had called AAA for help,right.Now if there was someone else coming to pick here up wouldn't be easier to Tell AB that shes got''who ever'' following her and they will be there in a few minutes. Just thinking outside the Bun...

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    26. Also,another thought is if she was running away for good and to never look back. If i were a 21 year old female I'd be running with someone who's got a job and some money while I figured out what I was doing.
      Maybe someone a bit older and wiser than me...say a College Professor that got transfered to another College around the same time Maura went missing.Maybe...Maybe not

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    28. Well, I would think she would not mention another person if she was intentionally running away because it would prove that she had a plan and it would implicate someone else in helping her. That would greatly narrow the scope of the investigation and give the authorities a clearer indication of what direction (not geographically but in general) that they should go in. For someone trying to disappear, that information would be detrimental and it would eliminate the shroud of mystery needed to leave people to suspect she met harm and eventually stop looking.

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  23. If she had stolen credit cards and was ordering Papa Ginos delivery with then, its plausabile she might of had some pretty good fake IDS to match the identity theft. At Umass Amerherst "The zoo " in 2004 ; getting a fake id was as easy as going to the computer geeks dorm room paying 100 dollars and getting your picture taken. And you would be amazed at how good some of these IDs and Passport forgerys could be. One avenue to investigate is to look at who whos identity she has stolen in the past. Also look at the Fake ID she used before she was 21. But somebody with credit card fraud more than likely had fake IDs to accompany the card. Maybe she is still using one of these names. Just a thought.

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    2. Does anybody have information about the credit card # she used. Whose was it, how she got it, etc.? That'd be very interesting to see how that all came about.

      And while fake IDs are certainly prevalent on college campuses I never heard of people getting fake passports at school (Maybe you have?). That's a little more complicated than getting a regular state ID just to get into a bar. Even a lot of state IDs are pretty bad in college. Some are pretty legit though if you get the right person to do it. As you said, there are some kids who can do wonders on a computer.

      Not saying it's impossible she did but I doubt she would have gotten ID, Passport, BC, and/or SS card and other essential documents to assimilate into a new life from someone at UMass. How could she ensure that the person wouldn't come forward and say he gave her fake IDs or tell someone else about it? And if you say for fear of prosecution, I'm sure prosecutors would have let is slide in order to get that info. Maybe they wouldn't but either way a lot of college kids have big mouths. I wouldn't trust them to keep their mouth shut. Especially if she got ID's, birth certificate, etc. and then she disappears. I feel like a "computer nerd down the hallway" would have said something about it

      IF she did go that route my guess is she would have to get these types of documents from a "professional" or maybe if it was someone at UMass it was someone she could really, really trust and knew pretty well IMO. Maybe herself? Not sure how tech savy she was?

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    3. Ryan the police report on the cc Fraud sting Is in the file cabinet called "Documents" I think on the left window of the blog. Lots of good stuff in there plus on jr blog/comments on his prior posts just google Maura renner n credit card :)

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    4. Thanks JLB. What do you think? Do you think she got the CC# from the Dominos receipt? I looked up the Fair and Accurate Credit Transactions Act (which prohibits writing the full # on the receipt) and it didn't go into effect until December of 2003 so I guess they could have still be doing it at the time and I don't really know how else she would have gotten it. Just seems stupid to put the whole number on the receipt but I guess that's why they made it illegal....

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    6. switch gears in investigation , change your mind set that she might still be alive and is wanted for identity theft. I bet if you trace local food deliveries to that dorm room.address during the time she lived there , you might find more identity theft and some possible names she might of had possesion of. Back in 2004 you could of easily gotten very far away with $230.0 dollars a stolen credit card and some booze.

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    7. And practicing Identity Theft for a decade is a real good reason to me to remain in hiding.

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    8. First off where did you get the 30:1 ratio. And do you have any evidence to back up the claim that there is/was a organized crime syndicate for identity theft at UMass?

      She obviously wasn't a real good criminal. It's pretty darn stupid to used a stolen credit card number and then have food delivered to your place, no? That leads the police right to you. That suggests to me she had no idea what she was doing. IMO

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    9. And I would imagine still that if she got a bunch of documents from someone at UMass/surround college someone woud have said something. If she or someone just stole a school ID so she could cross the border. That's more plausible. But she would need to get all new documents once she got into Canada. And judging by her criminal history I would imagine she's not good at getting and using a stolen identity without detection. I highly doubt she got real good at it and has gone undetected fro 10 years. I understand it's probably not as hard as most people think but she had the food delivered to her dorm. Who does that? Obviously not some expert on ID theft IMO. Using a stolen CC go pick the food up. Sheesh

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    10. And I wasn't involved in the investigation and don't have inside information but my guess would be that LE considered the other stolen ID theory before she got caught. Maybe not but you'd think they'd cover all bases.

      What's your theory on how she got to Canada from the crash site?

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    12. Bear in mind, @Ryan Rye, that in 2004 you did not need a passport to get into Canada. That did not take effect until June of 2009. I grew up on just this side of the border from Canada and we spent many a Saturday there, concerts in Toronto, etc. with only having a driver's license (I'm sure it helped that the address was local).

      In theory she could have gone over with a driver's license, said, "I'm sightseeing for a few days / shopping / etc." then once she was in, disappear. (I don't actually know what's over the border up in those parts :))

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    14. But then she needs a new identity once in Canada. And if she doesn't know anyone up there makes everything more of a challenge. All of it is easier said then done. I'm not saying it's hard to cross the border ( I even said above she could do it with a simple ID back then). It's what she does after is more challenging.

      And I'd hope investigators would ask agents at border crossings if they've seen her. At least at VT,NH,ME crossings. I understand a lot of people cross the border and they don't recall every single person but maybe someone would remember seeing her.

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  24. @Matthew Lyons, I understand what you are saying about the Haverhill area/rural NH in genral/heck any area in rural America!

    That said, you need to be more explicit as to what you mean. "Off the grid" you keep saying as if it is a bad thing and these are bad people which baffles me. There are all kinds of people from all walks of life and all political persuasions who choose to be off the grid for many different reasons. Hippies, Conservatives, Criminals, whatever. What is wrong with being self sufficient? Producing your own food? Thats a good thing, thats sustainable living, etc. Stop implying that people who are different from your chosen lifestyle are a threat. Drop the "off the grid" like it implies criminality.

    If you think people up there tend towards the criminal side, say that and back it up.

    As for the cops up there you say they can't deal with solving real crime. I dont know who specifically you are talking about but the NHSP Major Crimes Unit is as competent as you will find in just about any other place in the US.

    Having lived sort of in the local area (about 30 miles away) for 4 years immediately following the accident, I got some of the local spin on what people thought, including a roomates girlfriend who was from Haverhill. She and her family always insisted, as others have, "its not a question of Butch, its a question of who was Butch afraid of". There exists a chance, and I wont assign a probability to it because I CAN'T, that he saw "something" and was unwilling, even to death, to say what.

    I personally believe in a very broad sense that she got into a vehicle in the short time she was "alone". Whether that was a tandem traveler, local dirtbag or what I don't know. I think if the local dirtbag theory is true, Butch could have and maybe even likely DID see who. I'm pretty sold on the vehicle angle and that she got in one willingly and even happily, I toss Forciers account of somebody running, I think he has a more than a few screws loose and is just not credible here. Getting into a vehicle and high tailing it east is the only explanation for vanishing so quickly with literally no physical trace at the scene.

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    1. Why necessarily east? If she truly was "running" even prior to the accident (especially if there was a tandem driver) then yeah east makes sense. But if the dirtbag theory is being considered, and her trip up there was basically innocent, it makes sense to me that if she had to catch a ride with a stranger she would want to go west--back towards the freeway, out of the woods, etc.

      Maybe my mental map of the area is jacked up, but wasn't that gas station she may or may not have stopped at very close to the crash site to the west? If it was a basic case of fleeing the scene of a dui crash, all she had to do was get away from the scene and to safety so she could figure out what to do next, its really not that big a deal.

      All this is not to challenge the above comment, it just seems set in stone in many peoples' minds that Maura took off east, but in a dirtbag scenario I see no reason why the direction she fled is anything but a coin flip

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    2. Challenge all you want, many things in this case are a "coin flip" thats why its such an interesting and unique case.

      As for west being towards interstate 91, east will also bring you, albeit over a mtn pass and through rugged woods, to I-93 in about 30 miles or less. Either way, there is not an interstate very far, relatively speaking.

      I favor east for a few reasons:
      1) Dog tracked a scent east for a bit (caveats being discussed in prior blog posts, info could be quite unreliable but there is an east signal in there). If any of that data can be trusted, I think it suggests a car passed the accident scene headed east, saw her, put the brakes on ending up closer to Atwood's property and Maura ran up to the car and got in.

      2) LE and Fire/EMS were responding from the West going east and I believe I read someplace that responding officers met no passing cars along the way

      3) The lady that saw the Red Truck I believe said she did not see any cars pass westbound

      4) The Westmans and others near the curve/accident site do not report seeing any other vehicles slow down or stop at the accident besides Atwood, to me this implies somebody went by quickly when they were not watching or even came down Bradley Hill Rd just to the east of the accident and Maura ran towards the vehicle and went east. I guess west is possible in that situation too but we are kind of narrowing in on the dog scent and some deductive reasoning pointing to the idea that she got in a car to the east of the accident site around Atwoods house. This is also consistent with many of the Haverhill locals who say its not Atwood, its who he is afraid of ie he knew damn well who picked her up and what they probably did but was afraid for his and his families safety if he said anything.

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    3. If 2) is true, that makes it far less likely that she got in a westbound car. I don't know what the back road situation is around there so I wont call it impossible, but significant for sure.

      I agree with you that the most likely pickup point (if there was one) was somewhere right around butch's house, although just because she started walking east doesn't mean she got in a car going the same direction.

      I can also see where Maura would want to avoid having to approach/bypass the property directly, seeing as she was trying to "avoid" butch in general at that point. That could influence her in potentially heading west. Beats me though either way.

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  26. She had used the fleet visa at several locations and not just the one. The Fleet visa number is 4326 2600 2416 1944. The person's whose card she stole lived in the same building. Back then the full credit card number appeared on the receipt, and the photo copies of the receipts show this. The only hacking Maura did was bend over and pickup a receipt. She did lie to the police before finally admitting where she got the credit card number.

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  27. Maybe the person who's credit card it was,was in cahoot's with Maura..order some stuff with my credit card and I'll report it stolen. I mean it's Pizza for christ sake.It's not like its a Brink's job..College type mischief

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  28. This may be a dumb question but I will ask it anyways. I have family in Indiana and I know there are Amish communities up there. Is it possible that MM ran off and is living in a local Amish community? With no cable tv, etc (some Amish still practice the original beliefs) it would be easy to not be recognized because they wouldn't have seen the case! It's probably a stupid suggestion but I'm curious to know if there are any Amish farms in any of the areas near where she was living/looking?

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    1. I'm not aware and I don't think there are any Amish farms in New England.

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  29. Well I know Pennsylvania has a huge area. I just meant any not hate me of the state that she could have slowly ran too.

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    1. But the traditional Amish in Penn speak Pennsylvania-Dutch...And besides the language barrier it would not be easy to live in such a tight-knit/closed community for a long time...
      And she certainly could not hide there pretending to be an Amish, because 1) language differences 2) the Amish have good records of all the different family trees (all over the US)...3) Culture/Religion...

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  30. Here's some more info on background of Claude Moulton, who was living at the infamous A-frame house when Maura Murray disappeared in 2004:

    -- Born in April 1962 in Bradford, Orange County, VT, which is right across river and Route 91 from Haverhill, NH.

    -- Son born in September 1978 in MA.

    -- Married in November 1978 in Bradford, VT, but was only 16 years old so his mother had to sign consent form.

    -- Brother Corey Moulton killed in drunken car wreck in August 1980 in Newbury, VT while trying to outrun police.

    -- Divorced in January 1981 in VT, at 19 years old.

    -- Charged with violation of abuse protection order in June 1993 in Orange County, VT. Pleaded innocent in July 1993 and was released on conditions. Changed his plea to guilty in September 1993 and was fined $100. Arrested in October 1993 on warrant after failing to appear in court in pay fine. He was 31 years old and living in Bradford, VT.

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