Tuesday, March 8, 2016

Fred Changes Story About the $4,000, Again.

A quick recap: Just before Maura disappeared, someone visited 8 different ATMs in Massachusetts and withdrew $4,000 from her father Fred's bank account. Fred has gone on record, in a police report, claiming it was him.

And remember back in November, when the Murray family spokesperson said that, after Maura disappeared, the money was put back into an account that Maura could access?

Well, during last night's live discussion, that story changed again. John Wolfman Smith says that Fred recently told him only $500 went back into that shared account after Maura disappeared.

What happened to the remaining $3,500?

No version of this story makes sense. And it keeps changing.

The thing about the truth? It doesn't change. The truth is easy to remember because it happened. It's harder to remember lies.

57 comments:

  1. While I do agree with you, one question still remains... and I know it has been put out there many many times... If he knows where Maura is/what happened to her why would he put on a 12 year facade? Why would he keep looking for her and pushing for FBI involvement? I have reservations about his truthfulness, but can't figure this out at all.

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    1. Perhaps, because they know the FBI will not take over, unless there's evidence/proof of a crime.

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    2. Maybe, he does not know where she is. Perhaps, she stole the $4k while Fred was sleeping. This would add turmoil to their relationship and could have been part of the reason she was fleeing. Fred doesn't tell law enforcement because "nothing that happened before matters(not his exact words)"

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    3. Has LE ever looked at the ATM videos to see if these were done by Fred or Maura. I never thought that the limit on daily withdrawals would allow eight transaction of 500 each.

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    4. Has LE ever looked at the ATM videos to see if these withdrawals were made by Fred or Maura.

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    5. I think after Fred sued the state of NH and lost. This case is not just a cold case it's frigid. It points out flaws in the state from day 1. I really wouldn't expect much out of the state's cold case unit. That's why I feel there is some vindictive Ness Fred has been extremely critical of them. The ATM video if anything should be released.

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  2. Looks like this liar's pants are on fire.

    *slips on sunglasses*

    YEAAAAAAAAAAAH!

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  3. I've always assumed that the confusion surrounding the money was due to his precarious financial situation - if his house was being foreclosed upon it would make sense for him to withdraw cash to obfuscate the trail from his creditors.

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    1. I think that it is very sad that Fred was so concerned about Maura that he put all of his energy and money into finding Maura.... to the point that he neglected his own well being. That was how much he loved her.

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  4. Did Maura have an ATM debit card to Fred's bank acct? If she had access to the acct, then most likely she had a card too.
    If Maura did have a card, could Fred and Maura both of been withdrawing the money from the ATM's?
    How is it possible to withdraw 4,000 from 8 different ATM's in 1 day? Fred knew he was coming to Amherst on Sat., so why didn't he go inside the bank to withdraw the money. Most banks are open, until Noon on Sat and on Friday until 5:30-6 pm.
    At first, the money was put back into the acct. And now only 500 was put in there. Lies change overtime, the truth will always be the same.
    If something bad did happen to Maura, then its doing her an injustice by not being truthful. I think most people would understand a 21 yr. Old female, going through a hard time and making some mistakes along the way.
    Who and What was Maura running from?

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  5. Oi.....Fred needs to stop jumping around.

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  6. Not suggesting that there hasn't been changing stories from Fred, but have you looked back to see exactly who has made the various statements over the years? This overall mystery has had its share of bad info/theories that have eventually been thought to be fact. I wonder what happened might have happened to the money.....and when.

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    1. I couldn't agree more. I want to see proof either in print (which we all know can be distorted) or on video that he said anything about the money.

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  7. The reason for the money was new (used) car right?

    Who buys a car like that?

    I bought a used car from a private owner 2 years ago. I paid cash but I didn't go to 8 ATMs to collect said cash.

    This was probably mentioned but is a time of day known when he retrieved that money from ATMs?

    Sounds super urgent especially since her car wasn't dead.

    Honestly, even the money wasn't for a car, I doubt anything that happened in MA has to do with her disappearance. No one who knows her has given me reason to believe they know anything about why she wouldn't mysteriously vanished so quickly.

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    1. Fred probably did not go to a bank and withdraw the money directly because he was travelling for his job and was far from a bank branch. He may also have had the money in several different accounts.

      I agree that the disappearance seems to have been a singular event apart from all the convoluted activities before hand that got Maura on the road.

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  8. The $4000 from ATM story has always bugged me, mainly because nothing adds up with what I know from working in banking for 10 years. ATM/Debit cards have daily limits for the amount of cash you can withdrawal, as well as the limits set by individual ATM's. For example, the bank I currently work for allows you to withdraw $1200 in cash from ATM's, per day. However, the ATM you stop at may only allow you to withdrawal $300 max. I've worked for a few different banks and have NEVER seen someone with an ATM withdrawal limit of more than $2000. I've just never been able to accept Fred's story that all that cash was obtained from ATM withdrawals in one or two days.

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    1. Yes I was under the impression that there's a DAILY max, not a specific ATM max.

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    2. He could have taken cash advances from credit cards from ATMs. Not sure that the limit applies in that case.

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    3. I know my account has a daily limit too, well below $4000. I always assumed it was multiple accounts and maybe that was the reason for multiple ATM visits for each bank.

      James... any clarity on this? One bank account for all 8 withdrawals or multiple bank accounts?

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  9. This super interesting to me. Maybe more than any other recent piece of info.

    Sure, you wouldn't want $4000 tied up if it wasn't being used, especially if you don't just have that kind of money to throw around with no good reason.

    In my mind, leaving only $500 sparks a few thoughts:

    -He thought she could be in short-term trouble but nothing huge. $500 could get you away for a while but not forever. Perhaps knew she needed to cool her head somewhere. If you're frugal you could definitely do a week away for $500.
    -Maybe he knew she needed the full $4000 but held back the rest so that she would have to contact him for more.
    -I can't think of a ton of scenarios that would have required $4000 outside of tuition or a car when I was in college. It would really have had to be something crazy for me to even ask for anything more than $100 or so. Even the $500 would have been a lot for me to ask or my parents to give.

    This is so very interesting. I really don't think Fred knows where she is or what exactly she was doing, but the money aspect means he has hope or had an inkling that she may need cash for something other than a car.

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  10. I agree. The $4000 plus $280 plus whatever cash Fred and Maura had on them prior to that equals enough money to get outta dodge for quite a while, especially with a helper.
    If she actually had a full scholarship and two jobs, she might've had substantial savings as well.

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    1. So, you think the weirdness early on was because people knew she needed to escape temporarily. But then somethng bad happened and now no one knows where she is?

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    2. I'm not saying Fred helped Maura leave. I think she might've stolen the money from him.

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  11. What were Fred's original statements to the media concerning the $4,000? Can anyone provide me with a link to the news article?
    Thank you in advance!

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  12. I thought the same thing last night James. Yet another inconsistent story from Fred. I really don't think Fred knows where Maura is but I'm pretty certain she was running not only from Billy but her father too. I don't particularly buy into your theory about Maura being alive and in hiding but I do appreciate you challenging John Smith and his theories about police conspiracies. By the way, do you know why John Smith was a police officer for only 3 years? Gotta be a good story there. He may have an axe to grind perhaps?

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  13. Could he have been using different credit cards, not different ATM's? Maybe he was getting cash advances on multiple credit cards.

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    1. This would definitely fit since he owed back taxes at the time, correct? He had to pay cash because he wouldn't have passed a credit check. This really isn't as mysterious or sinister as some are trying to make it out to be.

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  14. James, you also said during the show that you don't believe Fred knows where Maura is. So do you believe he just gave her this money to help her disappear to parts unknown, and now he's looking for her? Or do you think looking for her is an act? Or do you think it wasn't Fred who made those withdrawals?

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  15. I don't really ascribe to the theory that Maura ran away. There are far easier ways to disappear. (As a woman, I just wouldn't choose to disappear from a desolate road in such an eerie way.)

    You briefly touched upon your underlying reasons in the spreecast. And honestly, they are admirable. You just can't imagine one person being so unlucky. Such a pure reason.

    I hope you are right.

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  16. When my daughter was in college we had a joint account.All student loan checks were direct deposited into that account by the school after they had deducted the semesters tuition.The funds deposited were for living expenses that the fed loan agency includes in its awards.As I recall ,each semester,after the drop & add period,the school took its tuition& it took a couple weeks for the living expense funds to deposit.As I recall it may have happened late January.Maura may have had access too the Acct.Whose names were on that Acct?

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  17. I've kind of felt like Fred knew that she was planning on getting away-short term....but then something happened. Whether it's foul play or she had a more permanent plan would be the question. I think the plan he thought was going to happen did not pan out the way it was supposed to and his emotions today are genuine. If this is the case, I just wish he would be more forthcoming about the truth leading up to the disappearance.

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  18. The ATM story has always been fishy to me. I also work in banking and I agree with the comments someone made above. ATM cards have limits so it's not like someone can just drive around town hitting up every ATM they find and going crazy. Their card would get shut down for fraud.

    Not to mention, ATMs primarily carry 20 dollar bills. Do you know how bulky $4000 in 20s is? It couldn't fit into a pocket or envelope. Do we have any video surveillance of Fred actually going to these supposed eight ATMs? Or are we just going on his word, which has apparently changed multiple times over the years?

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    1. Just the whole thing of going to 8 different ATMs sounds insane...

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  19. I never understood how someone was able to withdraw $4000 in one day from one account at multiple ATM's. I thought the daily limit was for the account, not the ATM.

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  20. What actually happened to Maura Murray : Part 1
    I’ve been following this case for quite a while now, and have heard plenty of theories. From police cover ups, to an A framed house, tandem driver, that Maura wanted to disappear and other several theories… I’ve come to the realization that none of these are true and none have any evidence… Quite frankly, if we stick with what we know about this case, finding Maura would actually be feasible.
    Before I continue with discussing what I believe happened to Maura, I’d like to cover a few points. We know that Maura had been drinking the night of the accident and we know she left the scene with alcohol. One of the effects of drinking alcohol is that your heart starts pumping warm blood to the blood vessels that are at your skin’s surface. This is why some people look flushed when they drink. The problem with this is that your body loses heat quickly. Also, instead of the warm blood going to your organs, it goes to your skin, leaving your organs vulnerable, especially to cold.
    Another point to make is that an average human can walk approximately 3.1 mile per hour. We know that Maura was quite fit and into track, however she was also carrying a backpack. Eye witnesses have said to have seen Maura walking away from the scene, even one witness coming forward that he had seen Maura about an hour after the accident walking along Route 112.
    Another point I want to make is that of body temperature. Body temperature is usually maintained near a constant level of 36.5–37.5 °C. Hypothermia is defined as a body core temperature below 35.0 °C (95.0 °F). Another thing we know about Maura is that she had an eating disorder, bulimia. One side effect of having bulimia is having low body temperature. The night of the accident the temperature was actually around 35F or 1.7C however with the wind-chill it would have felt more like 31F or -.5C. Contrary to popular belief, these are temperatures that can bring about hypothermia. After the accident, the temperature had dropped slightly. The temperature was now 33F or 1.1C but with the wind-chill it felt like 29F or -1.2C. Also if we follow the route that Maura took after the accident on route 112 you go around a bend and follow a river the whole time. When the wind hits the water, it brings down the temperature too.

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  21. What actually happened to Maura Murray : Part 2
    Here’s what I believe happened to Maura. She got out of the vehicle and realized that the police were on their way and she did not want to stay there. Her first decision was to grab the alcohol and a few other things and walk away. She was seen walking up route 112 and track dogs even had her scent up the Atwood’s place. As she’s walking she decides to have some alcohol since it makes her feel warm (by this point she’s very cold and the alcohol is making her feel warm). She continues walking, but is losing a lot of her body heat by this time. She begins to follow the river and is feeling the intense cold coming from the water but she continues to walk. At this point she’s hoping to find a place to stay the night. She continues walking further. At this point she’s about 30 minutes into her walk, but she notices that her legs and arms are sore and feel tired. This is caused in part by the loss of heat form the alcohol and also from the cold temperature. The heart is now trying to supply her body’s organs with as much blood as possible and is not pumping as much to her muscles. She’s experiencing muscle cramps and tiredness, but she presses on. About an hour into her walk she sees a vehicle drive by, it’s the witness who was coming from his job in Franconia. At this point, both the alcohol and cold temperature have affected her mind. She is no longer capable of making rational decisions. She starts to look for a place to lay down since she’s feeling tired. She’s looking for some sort of enclosure or man-made and or natural structure she can lay under, perhaps a log, or a bridge, or a stone… anything really. If you look on google earth, 3.6 miles away from the crash site up route 112 there’s a bridge. My guess is that Maura when down under the bridge to get warm… She drank some more alcohol and either succumbed to exposure right away, or passed out from the alcohol and then succumbed to exposure…. No tandem driver, no a framed house, no police coverups. She simply died from exposure…. I have a feeling if they did a search 3 to 3.5 miles from the crash site and looked under logs, bridges, man-made structures or natural structures they would find Maura.

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    1. This is actually one of the most feasible theories I've read.

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    2. Why did the dogs lose her scent after 100 feet?

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    3. Agreed: walking east has always been the simplest explanation. Unlike the other major theories of the disappearance, it does not require creation of additional speculative facts in order to make sense. Assuming Maura had been drinking (as a preponderance of the evidence suggests), her initial thought would have been to avoid law enforcement and metabolize the alcohol in her blood by walking it off. As an experienced hiker and long-distance runner, Maura would have had far greater confidence than the average person walking through the woods at night, and could have covered a far greater distance at a greater speed. Six miles on the road would be a prudent estimate, and it could have been further. At that point she may have left the road to climb to higher ground in order to get a cell signal, or to seek shelter and warmth near the walls of the canyon. Her remains will be found far from the previous search area, in a place where she sought shelter under a log or natural structure.

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    4. The dogs lost her scent for two reasons. First, she was walking at the time she got up to the Atwoods and I believe a vehicle went by which startled her and she began running. The second thing is that the Atwood's house is near Bradley Hill Rd. I believe there was wind coming from Bradly Lake Rd at the same time Maura began to run.... This explains why the dogs lost her sent...

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    5. This theory is pretty sound. However, I'm sure under the bridge was checked at some point (although based on everything we've heard, probably days or weeks after she went missing). What do you think happened to the body? Maybe animals came upon the body and that's why they didn't find anything?

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    6. Very feasible and sensible theory. Add to that the phenomenon of paradoxical undressing, which would have sped up her hypothermia.

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  22. I don't have a problem with Fred taking cash from the ATMs - maybe eight times over 3 days. He may not have been able to get to the bank with his work hours. (I personally know someone who purchased a used car from a dealer with $4,000 cash just last year.) I don't know if Fred's money was for a car though. It seems reasonable that he redeposited $3,500 of it and put $500 in a joint account. I thought it was Helena who stated the $4K went into the account for Maura. I don't remember Fred ever stating that.

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    1. What's wrong with just writing a check?

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    2. Checks need time to clear.

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    3. I bought a car for my daughter and wrote a personal check, which the dealership accepted.

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  23. John Smith's thing about "Fred is an old school guy, he always carries cash and likes to pay for things in cash" does not at all address why he would withdraw from multiple ATMs! If he's such great friends with Fred now he really needs to press him for an answer on that.

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    1. John Smith will never press Fred on anything out of fear of being frozen out of the Murray "inner circle" and becoming even more irrelevant to this investigation.

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  24. I know it has been said Butch Atwood didn't harm Maura but could he of helped her get away from the scene.
    Is it another quincendance that Butch used to live in Taunton, Mass. Which is about 36 mins away from Hanson,Mass. ( where Maura grew up). Found this info, so not sure if its true,but It looks like Butch's mom is a retired RN and was a special police officer for the Raynham Police Dept.
    Fred works in the medical field and Maura wanted to go into the medical field. Did Butch ever drive a school bus for Massachusetts? Did Maura know anybody from Tauton, Massachusetts's or Raynham
    (believe its Massachusetts)?


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  25. If all involved aren't being straightforward with info, what is expected to be done? I think you, Smith, the BlogSpot guys and Maura's father should have a sit-down and discuss the fallacies and truths of this case. Questions that need to be answered should be well-thought-out and written down beforehand. Ask Smith to arrange a meeting with Maura's father.

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    1. That is a very sensible suggestion and could be a very fruitful meeting for everyone. Can't ever see it happening though.

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  26. I once went to one ATM machine with a bunch of credit cards a few weeks before my bankruptcy. I wanted cash and didn't want to wait for the slow tellers, or drive around all day. This makes it simple. 1 machine, 1 big bag of $20 bills.I started to get the money $300 a time and some damn pig cop started watching me, so I had to leave.

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  27. Did Maura have use of one of FM's Credit cards? Was it Maura on 8 different ATM videos? Are the police not releasing the ATM video because it clearly shows Maura cash advancing to the tune of 4 G's?
    Was Maura cruising to ATMs in FM's corrolla?I'm sure FM would never admit to knowing.

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  28. The problem with the latest version is it came from John Smith. That guy is a wacko attention seeker. So far I've seen him say he was a cop, a private investigator, an actor, and now he's an investigative journalist. Sounds like someone with a personality disorder. Lance and Tim should be careful. I feel like this relationship with nutcase John "Wolfman" Smith is going to bite them in the arse.

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  29. I just posted this comment but, it looks like it didn't work. If it shows up twice I apologize.

    The problem with the new change in the story is it came from John Smith. That guy is a wacko attention seeker. I have seen him say he was a cop, private investigator, actor, and now he calls himself and investigative journalist. (make me laugh) The guy is like a rubber necker viewing an accident on a highway. Lance and Tim should be careful. I bet this relationship they've form with the nut case, John "Wolfman" Smith, will come back and bite them in the arse.

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    1. Ye, if doing a live broad cast, than they need to be sure that JES has not been drinking prior to going live. He is increasingly stressed out. last, live broad cast left him feeling that he is losing support for involving FBI. WE all know that FBI can "make anyone talk" but they should be able to make an independent investigation with out political pressure. John needs to move on front the issue of hitting a tree....WE all have accept that is misinformation. John wants to prove his conspiracy theory so badly that he is beginning to turn on his commenters. HE only wants to hear complete support for his claims. He is limiting people's right to free speech. He is trying to manipulate the true about other cases, like Pamela Webb' murder. There is no need to try to discredit a witness that he visited in 1989. there is no reason to try to hide that his brother, Butch, went to the Maine Turnpike to meet other witnesses and to visit the site of abduction. This has been well documented in this cold case. He is deliberately trying to ruin the online reputation of a witness that he has been seeking information from since 1989. That will not bully anyone into tell him what he wants to hear rather than the truth.

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  30. The "an account she had access to" thing is weird, too. Not her account. If she had access to it after the accident then she had access to it before as well. What account that was not her account did she have access to? Curious.

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