Sunday, March 13, 2016

What Do You Believe?

What is easier to believe?

1. That an intelligent man - whose house is about to be foreclosed on - visited 8 different ATMs to withdraw $4,000 in cash (that's 200 twenty-dollar bills, by the way) instead of writing a check or getting it all at once from a teller.

OR

2. Someone who wasn't Fred, who had access to the account, withdrew that money because they couldn't write the check or visit a teller (because they weren't Fred).


136 comments:

  1. I've never believed Fred's story about why he withdrew the cash, but I could believe that he would help his child(ren) if they needed it. I don't doubt his love for Maura, but I don't believe he's being honest about why he took the money out.

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    1. I dont believe it was Fred, robbery couldve meant drugs as well, but lets go with money. A robber finds out fred gave her money, maybe from school(because thats when she acts weird) and makes her type messages to boyfriend at knife point then instructs her to get money from her dad at knife point, they arrange an exchange, for the money at white mountains, things take a bad turn, figuratively and literally when her car wipes out. He is also seen at the car smoking a cigarette. Money, even as low as a $100 to a drug addict, perhaps a friend of her sisters idk wpuld kill someone for a fix, dont tell me otherwise. I really thi k it was a robbery gone bad.

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    2. An intelligent man would put life insurance on her, does anyone know if anyone did this, then have the body found. People have done this. I honestly 100% believe she met her demise and it has to do with money, not sex, not jealousy. The money is as big a mystery as her missing.

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    3. Thats alot of twenties lmao... It would make sitting down hard, pockets stuffed. To take all that money out, coincidently to her disappearing, then emptying a lunch bag of twenties from your pockets to deposit, wonder what e teller thought depositing a brown paper bag of money, It surely wouldbe been remembered lmao.

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    4. Life insurance payout would depend on declaration of death. The family has refused.

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  2. I'm assuming this is still a question because ATM/bank footage was not reviewed at the time?

    I've heard the theory that possibly Maura was going away to have a pregnancy terminated due to search results on her computer, her compulsive and suspicious behaivor before her disappearance (which would be understandable if you found out you were pregnant and had not planned on being), and the fact that she had sexual partners besides her boyfriend. This would make sense to me as she may want to keep this from her father or, alternatively only have her father or friends know in order to get help but not release the information widely. In this context the money makes sense - she could have withdrawn it herself but upon learning about this aspect of her exit Fred could have changed his story to cover for her (hence why no one also remembers discussion about the car needing to be replaced that weekend). Upon her dissaperance it would make sense for friends to be cagey if they discussed plans the night of the "party" and her father to be off if he either was assisting her in getting an abortion or found out after the fact from Kate or Sara that was the plans. This could account for why, in the immediate aftermath of her dissaperarance, many recount there was not a sense of urgency to find her - they could have thought they were letting her have her space and that she would resurface soon after. When Maura disappeared they could have kept this key bit of information private as they might see it as not directly related to the disappearance aspect of the case. All of this is speculation of course, but as some one who works in a women's health clinic I know how distraught one can be when finding out about an unplanned pregnancy, as well as how friends and family may not even want other members of the family to know that Maura was taking time away for a pregnancy termination.

    This speculation leads me back questions I have often: was the bit of information that she was searching about alcohol effects during pregnancy the only pregnancy related result that came up? Was this search info ever confirmed, and by whom? How do we know this search took place if there is no other info from the computer? Was there a clinic in the vacinity that she may have been going to (as it's understandable she may have not wanted to have the procedure in MA if she is from there and in school there as well if she feared someone might find out and wanted to avoid that).

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    1. I can see this happening, however I remember hearing that she was taking birth control. Clearly a nursing student would know that taking birth control after becoming pregnant wouldn't do anything? Maybe she was continuing to take it for appearances or in case Billy or a friend noticed? Idk, just speculating but it doesn't seem that we should actively take birth control and fill the order if she was pregnant.

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    2. I've always thought there was something to do with an abortion, as well.

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    3. I think it would be pretty easy to get an abortion near school without anyone finding out, especially if she was early in the pregnancy (it's a quick outpatient procedure). Her choice of the white mountains seems more like a getaway type trip than a medical one. It's certainly possible she was considering or had had an abortion though. I personally believe Maura was in a manic or mixed state of bipolar disorder which can lead to risky sexual behavior. Who knows if any of this led to what happened to her in the end, but bottom line, Fred isn't being forthcoming.

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    4. The thing is, it does not cost that much money to get an abortion, even today. Heck I think it is actually free if you go to Planned Parenthood.

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    5. Why would she risk these things without telling someone. There could have been complications. And for a woman to travel an unknown, unlit route at night. I don't see it. I don't care how much someone loves the White Mountains.

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    6. In today's prices, an abortion without insurance costs 600$ in Ma. It was prob much less 12 years ago. Since you work in a women's health clinic, you prob know the numbers even better. Wasn't the question about why Fred took out $4000 dollars at separate atm's?

      Is your theory that she needed the money to go take a break after she had it? Like a little vacation to rest up? Because that still seems like too much money.

      But, this is ALL wild speculation. Grasping at straws. Maybe we should stick to facts because some people may say that this type of speculation dishonors her memory. I am personally pro-choice, but I don't think this is what my family would want people to be talking about in memory of me. No matter what you may "think" of Fred not telling the truth, you do not know. Let's stick to what we do know.

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    7. She maybe had a prescription for birth control, she was bullemic as well, numerous people close to her at Westpoint know this. She had connections in the Universities, an abortion doesnt seem like her, she loved kids apparently.

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    8. Abortion has nothing to do with liking children.

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    9. True, I am wrong with that statement, sorry. Also upon reflection, Just becouse someone has birth control pills doesnt mean they take them. Alsoif one is bulemic it would seem to me she needed some type of control in her life. Stealing makeup, knowing she was going to get caught indicates another type of behaviour.

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  3. What I have a hard time believing is that everyone seems it's completely possible that a tandem driver picked up Maura after the Westmans were aware of the crash, after she spoke with Butch, but before police arrived...

    ...yet it's totally impossible that a stranger may have done so in that small window.

    Had Maura been picked up so effortlessly by a friend, without being seen how is it not possible that anyone else could have not done the same? She obviously didn't make any distress calls after the crash. In fact she didn't make any calls to suggest she was driving with anyone else.

    Despite that, one has to ask: why even drive the Saturn to begin with had she been traveling with someone?

    I genuinely doubt any friends or family know the fate of Maura.

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    1. About witnesses seeing her out there and not physically leaving, it was dark. Headlights would've been on. Don't even tell me that a witness in their house wouldn't have seen another car pull up. Now, because it was dark, I can believe no one saw her figure in absence of sunlight. But a witness would've seen a second car.

      But you are correct, if she was with friend previously, why take two cars? A weekend getaway with a couple friends doesn't include more than one vehicle usually.

      She made no calls at the accident site.

      That means if a second car, belonging to someone she knows, was either following her en route to wherever they were headed. OR the crash was planned.

      The second isn't too likely.

      And the amount of time she was at the crash site in person, if it was her, is a little short for even a friend to pick her up. The friend just missed bus driver stopping? Really?

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    2. I don't understand why she would drive a car that was almost incapacitated to a faraway place, unknown route, IN THE DARK. Women just don't do that. Travel in daylight hours is usually the way we drive unless we are dead sure of the route. Remember, these streets were extremely dark, not well-travelled, and definitely not straight.

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    3. We have heard on podcast that Butch told her to put her lights on, it wasnt completely dark unless she shut them off when he left? I think Fred needed that money fast and atms werent open. Either way paranoia would set in and he may take it out so the banks dont get it. Which makes sense why the friends said they didnt mention shopping for a car at all.
      Ultimately, I think she left the car, someone stopped where she was freezing and she got in. If she gets so drunk that she crashes cars, she prob took some alcohol with her. She was hot mess theres no way she could live under the radar this long.

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    4. She started acting strange at school typing to people instead of talkong to them, breaking down at school, I think the purp was in her dorm and forced into getting money and typing emails. Wow,...um wasnt there a killer tbat did that, made people think she was alive and well typing emails etc to buy time?? Same thing right, except I dont think he meant to kill her.

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    5. Wouldn't she have told Billy at some point during the week before she left that her father was coming up for the weekend, and she was finally getting a new, reliable car? I would think that this would be something that she would tell Billy while she was just casually discussing her weekend plans with him.

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  4. That would explain why maybe the ATM video for Maura has not been released either. Someone is lying here. Who can it be now.

    Seems there is evidence in that ATM video......Is it Maura really..?

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    1. I swear it's pointing at her running from people she owed money. The witness in the store when 3 girls bought liquor said one girl looked behind her.

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    2. When and where did Fred even say he took the money out and how much he took out? Is there proof this ever even happened? Or is it being spun into something different then we he actually said. Can you please provide links to him saying this on video or in print please?

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    3. What other evidence do you have to lead you to that conclusion? Because someone looks behind in a store that means she owes money?

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    4. He said it on disappeared, on just about every interview really.

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  5. Well James that’s a bit of a loaded question isn’t it? I’ll say this, I believe you’ve painted Maura and Fred and the rest of the Murray’s in a very unflattering manner. Some of the comments you’ve said are speculative at best and some I believe to be flat out untrue. I understand you’re writing a book about this, and I respect you as a person and as a journalist, however I think you’re missing the big picture here.
    Maura isn’t just some interesting story or some character in a crime novel. Maura was a young 21 year old women who was taken from her family and friends. She was a daughter, sister, niece, friend, student, employee, co-worker and so much more. She’ll never get to graduate from UMASS Amherst and become a nurse. She will never marry or have kids. She will never be a wife, mother, grand-mother, aunt…etc… I hope you don’t lose sight of this when writing your book. If you do, I think you’ll be missing out of the real Maura Murray story.
    As for your question, well I believe the version Fred said because I have no reason not to. Why did he decide to make withdrawals from several different ATM’s? I don’t know and quite frankly that is Fred’s business and no one else’s.

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    1. Its the polices business because Maura Murray is missing. It makes a big difference on what the money was really for and who withdrew it.
      Why believe Fred, when he has spun the truth. Just like him saying Maura and Billy's relationship was peaches and cream, when it clearly wasn't.
      I don't think Fred harmed Maura but I do think he's hiding information.
      Maybe some people disagree with what James has wrote and said but he has done a lot in this case to uncover the truth. James can't control what the information is he finds out because its part of Maura's story. If it wasnt for him, alot of this information would of never been uncovered.
      Yes, knowing what was going on in someone's life prior to there disappearence could hold clues to finding them.

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    2. Interesting way to approach investigations: "Well I believe so and so and that's that & it's his business". Wonder if that process would work for the police or private detectives etc... James is not "painting in an unflattering manner". If the information comes out & it may appear to be negative then so be it. He will post it. This is not a Hallmark card or popularity contest. Yes the obvious truths & listings of what she was to others & may never be in life are sad but that type of writing is best left for journalists doing fluff pieces and memorial services, obituaries etc. Not a criticism, yes... it's sad she'd gone but that kind of writing & thought process obviously does not fit with the type of blog or book JR has in mind. James' book is not going to be a sweet memorial piece. Let the family & friends have that statement. His book, rather, is a work that deals with a disappearance & theories surrounding it.

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    3. How would Fred know things weren't peaches and cream with Maura and Billy's relationship? He only knew what his daughter told him. You can't fault him for not knowing their relationship wasn't the best.

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    4. Thanks for your self-righteous lecture.

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    5. I think Names like me nust wants the truth out and now. If it was my kid i dont care how dark my past was, paint me any way you want, just give me my kid back.

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  6. Are you insinuating stolen card and Fred is covering for someone?

    Yea this seems like a stupid question but I had to ask.

    That Helen woman said the money went to an account she could access but hasn't.

    So there are 2 scenarios that spring to mind:

    A. M or a friend took his card and got out cash (ATMs have cameras, or most do). Id love to have someone prove the money is in an account. The money was for a new life.And she is either living that life OR strange shit happened along the way that derailed her.

    B. Someone got themselves in deep shit and owed that much to a bad person.

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  7. Did anyone think to check ATMs security cameras?

    Wasn't Fred the one who was upset that footage wasn't released, when M bought booze?

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    1. Hi James check your email, 6 page background report.

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  8. Given that intelligent Fred claimed he told Maura to place something in her tailpiper, he clearly has been known to cover for her.

    Considering Sara A said she wouldn't talk because she didn't want to get her friend in trouble, MAYBE money was owed to awful people.

    And those people /person did her in?

    It certainly points to a woman running from something. And having friends with her on the trip does encourage that theory.

    It's just real unclear when she parted from said friends. Whoever was in her car when it crashed was alone.

    What happened between buying wine coolers and driving alone in 112?

    The fact that friends and she had 2 vehicles is telling.

    If this was a quickish trip to clear her head with a couple girlfriends, why not pile into one vehicle, hit a store to pick up the universal remedy for mindclearing aha alcohol, and proceed to the destination, a hotel/resort in the mountains like the one she looked up.

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  9. From what I know of banks' ATM policies, and from recent posts here, we can be nigh-certain that nobody withdrew money that way. Banks just wouldn't let it happen. Therefore, I fail to see the underlying assumption behind the question. Maybe you know something the rest of us don't, something that justifies regarding this particular detail as significant. If not, it sounds like you are hanging far too much on far too little.

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    1. Yes, you are correct. It's very suspicious that is how a large sum of money was retrieved.

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    2. That's what I thought too! But I saw on this true crime show "See No Evil" that this girl Amy Lord was kidnapped and forced to drive to like 5 ATMs to take out money, then was murdered. The whole thing was caught on various ATM security cameras.

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    3. I believe that was what I was trying to sag, good point.

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  10. Writing a check wouldn't work, because it needs time to clear, most often 7-10 business days. You will get a better deal walking into a place with cash in hand. That being said, I don't understand 8 different ATM's.

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    1. I have to disagree, I bought a used car several years back with a check, which I paid for the car in full and drove the car home that day.
      Most dealerships will call the bank to verify that the money is in the account.
      Also, they can come get the car back from you if the check bounced.

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    2. because of daily and one time withdrawal limits. F probably did the withdrawals over a period of days.

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    3. Fred said he withdrew the money on Sat. not over a period of days.
      If he had days to withdraw the money, then why not go into the bank.

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    4. Car dealers and other businesses can get amounts confirmed on personal checks and put a hold on the money instantly. They have to pay for it, but it is worth it to them because a used car lot never wants an interested customer to leave and come back later.

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    5. Maybe the money was taken from 8 different ATMs because there's a limit as to how much one can withdraw at an ATM?? Just a thought.

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  11. It does seem peculiar to visit 8. Why not walk in a get all at once unless after hours and bank closed?

    I've done the same when needing cash to pay a bill where I didn't want to use check or credit card. However the most I could get was $300 per day without going in. I needed money after bank closed so I went to a few grocery stores and bought something then got as much cash back as allowed. Maybe 3 stops max, no where near 8!

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    1. I think Fred is covering for her giving money to her for something. HE covered for her over the tailpipe when he possibly suspected suicide?

      As James says, this isn't a dumb man. But if his kid is in trouble, he will say anything.

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  12. If the info is available - over what period was the cash withdrawn? I live in the UK and most accounts have a daily limit on ATM withdrawals - usually around $300 per account per day. So you'd have to withdraw that over several days. Quite risky that if it wasn't your account, unless the account holder knew you were doing it or didn't keep that close an eye on their account.

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  13. fred is son of a bitch,,, it's just a small while until everything is discovered,

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    1. Mike Ann! Mike Ann! Has anyone seen Mike Ann lately?

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    2. I never understood why Carpenter said Fred is a dangerous man. What did he do in the past to make him dangerous?

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  14. As I understand it, the foreclosure was really just the filing of a tax lien, there was no meaningful threat that the authorities were actually going to take the house. In fact they never did.

    Peter

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  15. JR, are you suggesting that perhaps someone outside the family was driving around getting the cash? That this person may inevitably done something to Maura?

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    1. Why weren't those ATM videos released? What's the good of keeping them secret after 12 years?

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  16. This is one of the details of the case that confuses me the most (one of many things). If it was Fred, why not write a check? He could have been using the money for a new car or to help Maura start a new life (both are theories I don't believe). What makes the most sense is, it wasn't Fred. This opens up a whole new angle, if it wasn't Fred - who was it? To get money out of an ATM requires a PIN number. One question I have, that may have been answered already, did none of the ATMS have cameras?

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  17. I think it was someone else withdrawing the money or it was both Fred and Maura going around to the 8 ATM's On Sat. Feb.7,04, instead of car shopping.
    Several years ago, my car was totaled (not my fault) and I needed a new car. I had 3500 and my grandma was going to help me on the rest for a 5000 vehicle. First I went to dealerships (not with cash) and once I found a vehicle my grandma met me at the dealership. She wrote a check and once we were finished we went to my bank, where I went inside to a teller and withdrew the 3500. I didn't go to multiple ATM's. Then my grandma put the cash in her bank.
    IMO- the story that Fred and Maura were car shopping on Sat.Feb.7, is a lie.
    1. Maura's friends said they didn't know her car was running poorly, she didn't mention getting a new car or car shopping. She met up with Kate and Sara and didn't mention anything about a new car.
    2. They didn't buy a new car
    3. Its odd to go to 8 different ATMs in 1 day and withdraw 4,000.
    It seems someone needed alot of cash fast.
    Could Maura of been pregnant? Did she try to have an abortion but was too far along? Or did others want her to have one but she didn't want to.
    * In Maura's car, a complete UMASS health questionnaire was found.
    * there was searches on her computer for the effects of alcohol on a fetus
    * it could be a good reason, why family and friends haven't spoke much, had selective memory on what Maura was doing prior to her disappearance.
    In most of the missing person cases, I have came across, I think most likely something bad did happen to them but in this case, I think its different. I think Maura's case could be one of the exceptions.
    IMO- I think there's a good chance,Maura is alive and living under a different identity.

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  18. Ok, back to reality folks… Maura’s mother Laurie believes she was abducted, Maura’s father Fred believes she was abducted, Maura’s family and friends believe she was abducted… Seriously folks, if you follow this case at all, every signs points to an abduction…
    Look, was Fred going there to buy a car for Maura… I doubt it very much. The reality is that Fred was having financial difficulties and was probably simply emptying his accounts before the creditors came knocking or before claiming bankruptcy… Period and end of story…
    Man, I’m getting really sick and tired of reading these comments… Before you start speculating about someone else’s family and a possible murder victim, just ask yourself this… Would I want people speaking about me or about my family in this manner?

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    1. I wondered that too, if he just needed cash and used the car story to cover that. Or maybe he really was buying her a car. Either way the family is not involved.

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    2. But you just implicated Fred in bankruptcy fraud...

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    3. The scolding "how would you feel" approach is best for children not adults. This is a blog about an ongoing investigation by someone who is putting out a book. This is not a "let's be nice contest and let's not put out anything that may offend". Journalism & literature does not work that way. Speculation can be viewed as possibly offensive and possibly incorrect according to you or others. So be it. "... getting sick and tired of reading these comments..." You are free to stop reading them.

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    4. This is a totally reasonable comment. Very weak circumstantial evidence for such lofty speculation.

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    5. Could well be the truth.

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    6. Why did her sister say even if it was a member of the family that did something to her?

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    7. I agree that he certainly could have been trying to empty his account to have some cash on hand before the creditors took everything. Makes sense to me.

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    8. If my family was missing then yes. I would want people speculating. Also if my dad was lying and being incredibly shady...then again YES! Please speculate and find me

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    9. Even if Fred was committing bankruptcy fraud, I very much doubt that it had anything to do with Maura going missing and I completely see why he didn't really want to admit it.

      We all seem to agree Fred's an intelligent man so if he thought talking about the cash would help find his daughter, I am sure he would.

      The $4000 is an irrelevant side story here.

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  19. a mi parecer la clave está en el ticket del parque de bretton woods talvez ahi fue donde esta el cuerpo
    I think the key is in the park ticket Bretton Woods maybe that's where this body

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  20. Fred couldn't visit a teller either if he had a local bank and was on the road and some card places might not take a check if it isn't local. All would take cash.

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  21. I was curious...Was this a drive up ATM that Maura might have visited before leaving Amherst? If so...There probably is footage of the saturn and you might be able to tell if perhaps she had damage to the Saturn already? Petri Vasi could have been hit by that car? That is why police have not disclosed the video?

    Also, if it was a tandem 2 driver.. Or 2 cars... I would want to know if the ATM picked up the drivers license before and after Mauras saturn and if that oerson made any withdrawls.

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  22. Start the petition to release the ATM footage on the grounds that this is the only missing person case that footage has not been released.

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  23. How come the Hadley PO officer that let her go in a tow truck after crashing his car hasn't been more Co operative. I always thought he could offer more credible information regarding her deameanor. I've always wanted to her more from him not as a police officer just as a human being trying to help.

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  24. It does seem odd that someone in such a bad financial situation that they were about to lose their home(!) would buy their kid a car. A luxury item.

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  26. So if Fred is giving her money, or giving her his card to get money, what's the money for and why so secretive about it?

    To start a new identity? If so, why would he go to great lengths to sell the disappearance?

    Or did he give her the money for something else and then she went missing via something unrelated?

    Just so weird.

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    1. I think the implication is that Maura took the card unbeknownst to Fred and took out the money herself with the intention to run away. Fred lied about it so that the police would take her disappearance more seriously.

      Sounds like a pretty legit theory to me and, to me, is the most persuasive argument for Maura running away to start a new life

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  27. I think it's pretty clear that you cannot withdraw that much cash from different ATMs under normal circumstances. With that said, I can't help but wonder if someone called the bank and requested the daily limit be raised to $4,000? If so, it could have been Fred. Perhaps, in the course of this speculative conversation, the bank told him to limit how much cash he took out from an ATM so he wouldn't deplete what was stocked? In other words, maybe the bank granted a request to access $4K in one day, but told him "Please don't take more than $500 out of any one ATM" so he wouldn't drain any one machine. With that in mind, he went to several ATMs.

    I can see why the withdrawals seem strange given the timing, but this is anything but a smoking gun when it comes to Fred's involvement.

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    1. I had this same thought yesterday. My bank (well, credit union) will let me up my ATM withdrawal limit every day of the year if I want to (though the highest I've done is $1,000).

      If his bank told him to visit multiple ATMs, it's likely because they knew each ATM had its own limit & that he'd *have* to do that.

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  28. The whole "... if there's any problems just come home & we can bang this out..." comments from FM way back in the beginning & on the TV show could very well be referring to (among other things) the multiple withdrawals for a large amount of money from his account. Vaguely worded via the media so as not to call attention to the exact details of the $$. Not stating this as a criticism of FM or MM. Just 1 of the thousands of guesses posted here. Nothing more.

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  29. The only reason I can think of for Fred doing it the way he did would be that he did alot of business in cash and was structuring. The CTR is mandatory at 10k, but bank tellers can fill out the CTR and the SAR for any amount. He also could have just been paranoid about his cash transactions for some reason. Other than that, it's much more reasonable to think perhaps someone else had a bank card and was trying to get around the transaction limits.

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  30. Does anyone think that the suggestion that Maura's brother in law (Tim Carpenter if I recall) was being hassled by an ex for money at the time is related to the $4k at all? This was apparently communicated to Maura by Kathleen in the "my sister" phone call / breakdown. Did Maura offer to deliver the money or get involved in this somehow?

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    1. Is there a source for this suggestion? It is not in Renner's rendition of what Carpenter said. Reddit is full of misinformation.

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    2. Drugs and murder and money all go hand in hand.

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  31. I know people think the probability of her getting abdicated is much too small, but much stranger things happen every single day. Look at the marathon bomber survivor. What are the odds she could survive a marathonew bombing, then die from a car crash cou please years later? It happens too much.

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    1. You are correct about it not being at all improbable for Maura to have been abducted. The odds of any woman being and abducted are vanishingly low if you simply divide abductions by the number of woman. Still vanishingly low, even if you constraint that calculation to young women. The small window of time makes it even more so.

      But ... Likewise, the odds of a plane crashing are vanishingly low. If you got heavy into thinking about a plane that already vanished (like the Malaysian Jet) and reasoned that it could not have crashed into the ocean because the odds of planes crashing are vanishingly low, you would be wrong. The issue is that you picked a plan that already had a weird outcome (it took off, disappeared from radar and never landed).

      In the same sense, everyone arguing that the odds for abduction are too low are making the same mistake. They picked out a missing girl; someone for whom a very unusual outcome has already occurred. She left, disappeared from radar and never landed anywhere (not any evidence really indicates that she did). To argue in that scenario that abduction is unlikely makes as little sense as arguing that the Malaysian Jet did not crash into the ocean. Both are vanishingly unlikely outcomes at take off, but not after the highly unusual event of vanishing.

      Moreover, Maura was in a vulnerable category. She had problems with drinking, bulimia, men, abuse and was clearly fleeing or in some kind of crisis and perhaps even half drunk when the accident occurred. All those things made her more vulnerable to either a stranger abduction, or being caught up in a scenario where someone she owed money to abducted and killed her.

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    2. I remember something about her sister getting harassing phone calls from someone who was owed money. I wonder if this drew Maura into the picture...and that was what the money was for. Was that red SUV that was spotted in NH Carpenter's?

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    3. Or Kathleen was lying and Maura really owed someone money.
      How long had Tim and Kathleen been together?
      If Tim was with Kathleen, Why would he get money from an
      ex-girlfriend.
      Looks like Fred had 4,000,so why not borrow money from him?

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    4. Why is "john green" replying to her own posts as "Anonymous"? The IP of the 2 comments is the same. Also, "john green/ Anonymous" is a woman in her late 20s

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    5. The chick needed cash for her abortion. But she was murdered before she killed her baby. Fred doesn't want this public, so is saying the abortion money was to buy a car. He's also told friends not to speak about her pregnancy.

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    6. I too think she was abducted, but at the University, not after the crash. A man was seen smoking a cigarette in the passenger side, everyone is so easy to dismiss Westmans original account, tisk tisk.

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    7. ...also was there not a cigarette burn on the floor mat on the passenger side, where both airbags were deployed, not just one air bag smh.

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  32. I have four questions that need answering.
    1)I remember when this first happened Fred made a statement to Maura, if she was listening, that this could all be worked out and to come back, if I recall correctly.
    2) What did the sister mean when she said...even if someone in the family did something to Maura?
    3)What did Carpenter mean when he said Fred was dangerous? What acts made him dangerous?
    4)Were polygraphs administered to all parties involved (close friends and family)?

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  33. for the umpteenth time ~ FM knows more than he cares to share.

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    1. ...as does everyone associated with this "scrambled egg mess". If I was going to plan an abortion I would take a specific antacid..viola done.

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  34. there are a few mysteries about the house in Weymouth Landing.(It is across the street from my childhood pediatrician's office BTW.)First the foreclosure was for a tax lien, not for an unpaid mortgage and was ultimately never foreclosed. Since the family home was in Hanson and Fred's wife divorced him years before (apparently supplanting him with a convict pen pal), the Weymouth house seems to have already been paid for and may have been a home inherited by Fred. It seems in 2004 he was not living in the house. So where was he living? Since the house was never foreclosed, the lien was somehow taken care of. The bottom line is that while Fred was by no means well off, he probably was not as bad off as is sometimes presumed and buying a used car for his daughter was probably not as much of a hardship as is often portrayed. If he had his bank in the Weymouth area but he was working far away in Connecticut or western Mass, he would have been unable to go to a teller to get $4000. Only ATMs would give him money instantly but they have daily and one time withdrawal limits. Most car places would frown on a large check not from a local bank. None would frown on cash. Now the money may not have been taken out to buy a car but for some other reason (an abortion?)but the same points would apply.

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    1. Hi. I think you have been given some misinformation.

      First, the house is not in Weymouth Landing, it is in Weymouth. It is across the street from another house where a Murray relative has lived for a long time. Those houses are among three situated at the end of a cup de sac in a strictly residentially zoned neighborhood.

      Second, the house was owned by Fred's brother. The Murrays were living there when Maura was in grade school, then moved to Hanson at some point before Julie got into high school. We know this because both Julie and Maura ran for Whitman-Hanson.

      Fred does own the house/own the mortgage on the house in Hanson. As to where he was living when he and Laurie divorced, there are two possibilities in my mind. First, Fred might have moved back into the house in Weymouth for a time. A tax lien would not have required the owner's to move out. They would have had a statutory period in which they had to pay the lien, before the house was taken and they were forced to move out. In some states, that period is as long as three years.

      I believe - but I don't know for a fact - that the house has indeed been foreclosed. I do know that it has been condemned.

      Fred at some point lived in Dorchester Center, in an apartment. He might have lived there after the separation.

      The question for me is when he moved back into the house in Hanson. I don't know it for a fact, but a number of things indicate to me that he was living in the house in Hanson when Maura went missing. One can imagine that when Laurie got really sick, they may have reunited. In any case, by 2009, I know that Fred was living in the house in Hanson.

      Finally, most car lots do not from on checks. Many pay for services to validate and hold amounts so they can accept checks. If someone wants a car on the lot, rule one is close the deal before they leave. Particularly given that they found the car they wanted, according to Fred, and were going to come back in a week, paying with a check is not at all unlikely. The car lot could have secured the $ behind the check by the following Monday, if not that same day.

      But I do agree with you on this point: he's blowing smoke to say that he went to eight different ATMs. It sounds like he made that up on the fly when he got caught in a lie talking with someone who used the phrase "withdrawal limits" and did not realize that there are both daily and per transaction limits. But in that scenario, I am not sure why he did not simply say that he had gone to the bank on Friday. Very weird.

      The MOST WIERD thing is this: why did he offer the statement about "$4,000 on my person" to the UMASS police? While it is not a transcript, it is clear that he said that in the way the statement was written up. It is an unnecessary detail. "We were going to buy a car ... we looked for cars, then went back to the hotel, then went to dinner, then met up with Kate ..." That is sufficient. He forced in that detail. Why? To me, it sounds like he was worried that if Maura were found (remember, he talked to UMASS police only a few weeks after Maura went missing) she might have 40 crisp Franklin's on her traceable to his bank.

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    2. as a native of South Weymouth, let me assure you the house is in the Weymouth Landing section of Weymouth, area code 02188. Weymouth consists of five villages. My pediatrician was located on nearby Broad Street.

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    3. Mr. Green you are quick to claim another's statements as misinformation when you yourself presented obvious misinfo about Weymouth. The Weymouth Landing post office is only a few blocks away from the house.

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    4. The house on Walker street is not Weymouth Landing, it is in Weymouth. Wherever the Weymouth Landing Post Office may be, the house is not in Weymouth Landing. This is easy ... go to Google Maps. 22 Walker Lane is in Weymouth.

      Also, the house is not across the street from your former pediatrician's office.

      With that out of the way, any substantive response?

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    5. According to Fred himself and confirmed by his family sources, Fred was living in Shelton Connecticut from late 2003 until 2005. Nowhere near Hanson or Weymouth.

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    6. I pointed out your poor geography because if you are wrong about things I know way better than you and of which you still deny, then you could be wrong about things I don't know that well but of which you assert vigorously. Is that nutshell substantial enough for you? BTW Walker Street is a dead end. If you go south from that dead end a short distance you come to Broad Street. The pediatrician's office was right across the street.

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  35. Of the options, I would believe the latter. In fact, I never thought of the possibility that it was Maura who made the alleged multiple withdrawals. I had thought of the idea that Fred's odd -seeming attitudes about the case and the publicity you bring to it was a function of somehow trying to protect Maura. This idea could be consistent with scenarios in which Maura withdrew the money.

    But the options given are not mutually exclusive. Another viable idea is that Maura was in trouble, Fred needed to give her CASH (not a check, because it was a cash business kind of trouble, perhaps relating to something that Kate or another friend was also involved in) to help her and that he himself indeed withdrew the money.

    I am not that persuaded that the lien recently put on the house in Weymouth is relevant to this question. Perhaps you have more information about this than you have revealed. But as I understand it, Fred's brother owned the house and the Murrays had at one time lived there. They were not living there after 1999 or so, which we know because both Julie and Maura ran for Whitman-Hanson, which is a different school district, quite a distance away. In short, I was under the impression that the Murrays had once lived in that house in Weymouth, but not recently, and that Fred's brother was the owner. Do I have some of that wrong?

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    1. Didnt Fred move out when his wife was eating on him, also isnt it true Mauras mother was cheating on Fred with a person who killed his brother?

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  36. I have no proof, but I have always believed that Maura took that money out of the ATM. Whether Fred knew about it or not, and is covering for her or not, she *did* have a history with stealing things, the most notable being electronic funds from cards that did not belong to her.

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  37. Fred was working in CT and Maura was at school in Amherst, MA. I don't see Fred lying to say he took out the money when it would be obvious what area the ATMs were in.

    Maybe Fred just hates waiting in line or maybe (likely) he was always working during banking hours so he took out $500 or whatever the limit was.

    I'm not saying the money was necessarily for a car (I think there's a >50% chance it wasn't) but I do think Fred took the money out himself, he's not stupid enough to lie about something like that (something so easy to get busted lying).

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    1. Were there ATM images of him at the time of the many withdrawals? If so, can they be released?

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  38. Is there any question that Fred has a credibility problem.
    The money is but one of many issues put out by Fred that doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

    The reason the $4,000 is an issue is because Fred makes it one. I can't help but think there is a lot of truth spilled out immediately after something like this happens. There is no time to revise your story because you don't know what everyone else knows. So, the $4,000 was important enough to Fred that it is on his mind and he feels the need to tell the Umass police about it. If the story later told by Fred is true. That they had picked out a Geo Prism and didn't have enough money to purchase it. Why would he not include that story in his statement thirteen days after Maura disappeared to the Umass police? The important part of that story is not that he had $4,000 on him, but that he didn't have enough to buy the car. Why mention the amount of money at all? I think he is subconsciously thinking about it and mentions it because he knows it is a issue. Does he want to put it out there incase the police get his bank records? Or is it possible that Maura and Fred had a joint bank account and he knows that the police will eventually see the money withdraws? What other reasons are there for mentioning the money? Things spiral out of control when he has to later admit that the money was withdrawn thru multiple ATM transactions. He has locked himself into a story that the money was for a car purchase and now can't back out of that story line. What he effectively did was put a neon arrow sign pointed right at the money.
    As far as the ATM withdraws. James, you mention that the withdraws where taken out in Mass. If my memory is correct, Fred was working a job in Bridgeport, CT. So, I am to believe that Fred, after work, multiple times over a couple of days, drives to another state to make withdraws at a ATM. Why not withdraw the money at a ATM in Bridgeport? If Fred wasn't on the job yet and was at home in Mass. Then it begs the question why not just go to your bank and make a cash withdraw?
    In fact, why bring the money at all? On the off chance that during a three to four hour search that they will find the right car for the right money? Would it not make more sense to search for a car first, then after finding one you like, get the money? What about trading the Saturn in? I would think that the dealer would want to see the car for an appraisal. Did they drive the Saturn? It would make some sense if they did. But who knows, Fred doesn't want to talk about it.
    Because according to him, it doesn't matter.

    You don't have to be Einstein to figure out that the story he is telling about the money doesn't make much sense.

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  39. Extortion. Pure and simple the chick was hiding something and the money was to keep someone quiet.

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    1. A tidbit, while she was in West Point she made a sexual harrasment case, perhaps she was silenced by someone "up there". If this is the case they are making a huge mistake, the longer it takes to find her the more people will put the pieces together, the *sshole will get caught.

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    2. Do some digging find out who the sexual case was against in Westpoint that may lead you to someone who wanted her dead.

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  40. Look at comments this guy Jermeny Rathbun is making on the maura facebook page. Kind of creepy

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    1. Yeah I saw that.
      He said he found a sweatshirt with the initials MM in black permanent marker and a champion sock in Warren,NH. He also said there was a red truck with Mass plates in the area, acting suspicious. Supposedly found in late June/ early May? Why would the red truck be in that area 2-3 months after Maura disappeared. Planting, removing,hiding evidence?
      The family was told about this and they verified the items. Why didn't the police get the items and then have the family verify the items?

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    2. I don't give the Rathburn stuff any credibility. He's a "state police are dangerous" truther, too.

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    3. This Rathburn stuff is total crap. Even minimal scrutiny debunks it.

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  41. Harry Payne, I did. Turns out that there's a strong chance his claims are true. In fact, Alex, a member of Helena Dwyer Murray's FB page, captured the entire comment by Mr Rathbun.

    Three or men, Mr Rathbun included, found what is very likely a set of Maura's running clothes. Out on a remote logging trail in Warren, NH. A barrel of red liquid. A guy acting very suspicious in a Red Ford 150. Mass plates, green lettering. Probably with a gun. This was claimed by an anonymous poster at Uaddit.com back in 2010, though without this level of detail. But in that older post, it's claimed that this Red Truck is owned by a member of The Murray Family. This person was acting as if they were interrupting something.

    I used to hold out hope she was a captive. Not any more.

    Conclusion? Maura Murray is dead.

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    1. a barrel of red liquid? what type of barrel? red liquid - blood?

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    2. Patience, MJ, could be more BS. Of course!

      For a good summary, check out Alex' post at John's under "For the Two of Us". Halfway down. Yeah ... there's a fight that broke out but hopefully there's not too many punctured egos.

      Rathbun is in contact with the family. According to John, he's upset it wasn't looked into further YET Alex Clogston knows a cop up there and he didn't think much of it ...

      So ... yeah.

      Personally, I'm not so hot'n'heavy on seeing this case closed with her dead, but even if Rathbun's statements are partly true, it's not good. Everything may check out except the owner of The Red Truck. As everyone else, I really want her alive, obviously.

      Y'know ... odds. That's thrown around a lot. What are the odds she was picked up by Mr Wrong in so short a window. I think about odds alot when I'm doing mundane things. Something screws up on me and I think, "Well, what are the odds THAT was going to happen?" Obviously, perty good.

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    3. MacParsons ... what you have written sounds like it was fabricated. For one thing, nobody finding blood in a barrel would ever describe it as "red liquid." It would have no appearance anything like that description. But wine and hooch are sometimes found in a barrel. Secondly, how do they know the running clothes were "very likely" Maura's? Third, what was the space relationship among the clothes, the barrel of red liquid and the guy acting strange. Was there a guy acting strange next to a barrel of red liquid and running clothes on a remote logging trail? When was this? Was it right after Maura disappeared? Also, your red truck story is a clear and horrifying confabulation of the real red truck story, which is a credible an account given by a real person who lives in Haverhill. There was nothing about "probably with a gun." Why post stuff like this?

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  42. Here's what I believe-LIE DETECTOR TESTS ALL AROUND...friends and family.

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  43. Who was the insurance adjuster on Fred's Toyota Corolla? Did someone from Amherst (insurance adjuster, auto mechanic) say they saw the Saturn before it left for NH and it had prior damage to it?
    Was the insurance office next to or close to the hotel Fred stayed at on Feb.7,04, when visiting Maura.

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  44. Chick got knocked up by a local "dirt bag" and ran off with him. That is what I believe. She went some place for one of those controversial procedures along the way.

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  45. Don't most ATM's have cameras? If he visited so many, one has to.

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  46. It doesn't necessarily have to be abduction. She crashed her car and was probably drinking. If that alcohol she bought was missing from the vehicle she probably ran off, got wasted and died in a ditch.

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    1. Youre an asshole..if that happened, they woud have found her by now.

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  47. This question is propaply in the the wrong place here, but I cant get this out of my head. Why was there a rag in the tailpipe of het crashed Saturn. Im a car mechanic and I cannot think of any reason for it to be there. And I think the rag should have gotten out when she was driving the car, coss of the fast exhaust gasses. Greetz for now from the Netherlands.

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    1. I had a strange dream, I guess because I think and think about cases. In my dream she was a hiker a runner. Most hikers leave markers like ribbons, but some leave cloth to find their way back or to indicate to someone their direction. I believe it is an indication that A. She made her connections and is safe or B. Serious trouble.

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  48. Perhaps this has been asked and answered, I follow your blog but admit not daily or weekly as I work alot and have a busy personal life. I'm not sure how things were in 2004, but now, I am unable to withdrawal more then 1000 dollars a day and as early as 2006, I could only withdrawal $400.00 a day from atms. I could still use the card as a debit but not to access that much cash. It was a safety precaution in case the card and pin were stolen. Was it ever verified that this many atm withdrawals transpired? Perhaps his bank allowed so much to be withdrawn in a short time? If it has been answered, please let me know and I apologize for not seeing it previously.

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  49. WOW- I had literally never thought about the idea that Maura would have stolen the money from her dad...? I say stolen because if he said she could have it, wouldn't he have just withdrawn it himself?

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  50. Having worked in the banking industry for many years, I find it odd that instead of Fred simply writing Maura a check for $4,000, or withdrawing the lump sum at the teller window, he withdrew the money from multiple ATMs and multiple locations.

    And the $4,000 was never used to buy Maura a car.

    So,given that that $4,000 was never used for the purpose of buying a car, was it given to Maura so that she could buy a car on her own since her car was apparently having mechanical problems?

    Or did Fred take the money back with him?

    I have to believe that she never deposited that money into her account because it was said that when she withdrew the $280 at an ATM, her account was practically emptied.

    So did Fred take that money back with him since a car wasn't bought, or did he leave that money with Maura, and she had that money on her on the day of her disappearance? If Fred left that money with her, she could have very well taken it with her. She obviously didn't deposit it.

    If she did have it on her at the time of her disappearance, then she was traveling with at least $4,280 in cash. That is an enormous amount of money to be traveling with.

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  51. After researching my questions about the multiple ATM withdrawals made by Fred that Saturday, I have come to what I believe is a reasonable conclusion.

    Fred lived in Connecticut at the time. He was probably unable to get to his bank in Connecticut because he was working during his bank's business hours.

    His bank could have been just a local bank that doesn't have bank branches in that area of Massachusetts. So his only option was to go to multiple ATMs to withdraw the cash.

    Checks would not work at a car dealership as they need to clear first.

    He probably called his bank to have his maximum daily withdrawal amount increased to $4,000.

    Each ATM has a limit on how much you can can withdraw. If it took 8 ATM withdrawals to take out the grand total of $4,000, then the ATM limit was set to $500 per ATM.

    After spending most of the day getting the cash needed to buy a car, there wasn't much time to find a car. Maybe a few hours of car hunting, which isn't a whole lot of time. But they find a car they like, but Fred doesn't have enough cash to make the purchase.

    Supposedly I read that Helena Dwyer Murray, Maura's aunt, said the $4,000 was put into an account that Maura had access to, and it was left untouched.

    But I also read, and I believe it was John Truthseeker Smith that said this, that only $500 of the $4,000 was deposited. So that leaves $3,500 unaccounted for. I have a theory on this.

    After Maura wrecked her father's car, maybe he needed that $3,500 back. Yes insurance probably covered the damage. But I believe he would have needed the money for the deductible in order to use his insurance to pay for the damage. So perhaps Fred took that money back.

    I think I safely say this $4,000 is irrelevant to why Maura disappeared.

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  52. OK after doing some more research, if Fred needed money for the insurance deductible, that would not completely explain the $3,500 that is unaccounted for. Most insurance deductibles are nowhere near $3,500. Maybe $500 or $1,000. Never $3,500.

    So then I thought maybe he needed the money for the car rental, but I found a document stating that he found a place that has free loaners. So I am taking that to mean his car rental was free.

    So once again, I am pondering the $3,500.

    Did Maura have that money on her? If Maura was looking to run away and start a new life, that was plenty of money to do so. But, honestly, I don't think that was her plan. I just don't think she would do that to her family and friends. I still believe that she was only looking to get away for a few days to clear her head.

    It is strange she would use a car that was having mechanical problems to take a long trip when she wouldn't even use it at school for short trips. But sometimes when people are feeling desperate, they do things they wouldn't normally do.

    And when she wrecked, she felt even more desperate. She disposed some of the alcohol in her car. When Atwood stopped to help her, she refused. She tried to phone for help herself, but realizes her phone can't get service in this area. So she gets whats she needs from her car, and she runs away from the accident. She heads east on 112, and about 100 yards down the road, someone pulls up and asks her if she needs a ride into town. She takes the person up on their offer. She figures she will just call her family, and she will come back tomorrow to take care of the car. I don't know what exactly happens to her after that, but she is never seen or heard from again.

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  53. Could be. Thanks. This may be where a Red Truck matters. That witness said she thought that driver was looking for someone. Later, another witness or the same gal says her dog responds to some noise down Old Peters Lane.

    All this sure plays out as a whodunnit ...

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